Genesis 38 confusion

[Joe]

It seems like you have to do a lot of work to make it work Meggie. I am not saying it is a bad idea, but it is also not wholly provable. And I understand why, it seems contradictory to some other things we know to be true.

I have much to learn.
But in my humble opinion an important thing I can see is that it was Judah who was careless, this is evident many times. And it was Judah's bastard offspring who could not do well, one was condemned immediately. They could never do well, and Judah didn't see that.

Tamar was low and is given a place of honour, Judah supposing her to be the problem.
And then it was Judah who said that Tamar was more righteous than he, ...and at that point he still doesn't understand, thinking that he should have given her to Shelah too. These are not the words or actions of God.

Despite Judah, Tamar was preserved and so was Judah. And those twins are the first counted heirs.
I have more to think about.

[Meggie]

It seems like you have to do a lot of work to make it work Meggie. I am not saying it is a bad idea, but it is also not wholly provable. And I understand why, it seems contradictory to some other things we know to be true.

I have much to learn.
But in my humble opinion an important thing I can see is that it was Judah who was careless, this is evident many times. And it was Judah's bastard offspring who could not do well, one was condemned immediately. They could never do well, and Judah didn't see that.

Tamar was low and is given a place of honour, Judah supposing her to be the problem.
And then it was Judah who said that Tamar was more righteous than he, ...and at that point he still doesn't understand, thinking that he should have given her to Shelah too. These are not the words or actions of God.

Despite Judah, Tamar was preserved and so was Judah. And those twins are the first counted heirs.
I have more to think about.

Thank you for your thoughts Joe! While the LXX doesn't say it quite the same as the Hebrew we're told God conceals and kings search out (Pro 25:2). God's people are to be a royal (kingly) priesthood (Ex 19:6).

I think you are correct in your view of Judah. Israelites are not called "stiff necked (Jer 17:23)" for nothing. Look at us today. A rebellious and stiff necked people whoring after every god except the Almighty God. Even when our people can see we are in a very bad way and our future is looking dim as it is today, we see them chasing after all manner of mischief. Just look at the insanity of the WN on SF. They mock God and make their impotent plans to save their people. If it weren't so serious I'd be on the floor laughing.

It's not the other peoples of the world that are the problem, It's us. If we did not chase after their gods they would not be in our land (Ex 34:24; Pro 16:7). It was Judah's disobedience to God that got his sons destroyed. I mean who is it that miscegenated with the non-whites in order to produce an offspring that is our enemy and children of hell?

I find it hard to believe that Judah didn't know what he was doing. He knew the Law of raising up a brother's seed, but not the Law that forbade marrying a Canaanite? I dont think so. I think he was just a stiff necked Israelite and was going to force his desire on God. Dont we stiff necked Israelites love to play god (Gen 3:22)?

What I see in this event is God bringing to fruition his plan (Isa 46: 10-11, 48:3; Pro 19:21). Onan was killed by God, IMHO because of his evil intentions toward God, His people and His plan. Note, the Law of God does not call for the death of a brother that refuses to bring up seed to his deceased brother (Deut 25:5-10). God had purposed that the lineage of Christ be pure and He brought it about inspite of the stiff necked Judah (Isa 14:24).

If you will notice, Judah refused to give Shelah to Tamar (Gen 38:14). I think God made a believer out of him as He will Israel's stiff necked children of today (Psa 66:7).

We find this tidbit from the script of the movie "The Matrix" (emphasis mine):

"That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see? Business people, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it...If you are not one of us, you are one of them."

[Joe]

Meggie wrote

What I see in this event is God bringing to fruition his plan (Isa 46: 10-11, 48:3; Pro 19:21). Onan was killed by God, IMHO because of his evil intentions toward God, His people and His plan. Note, the Law of God does not call for the death of a brother that refuses to bring up seed to his deceased brother (Deut 25:5-10). God had purposed that the lineage of Christ be pure and He brought it about inspite of the stiff necked Judah (Isa 14:24).

I agree, Onan could not do well. I think it is wrong to assume that Onan could have done well somehow, could have acted differently, and then polluted the line of Christ. Abraham had Isaac when he was a hundred years old, God will preserve His people. Despite themselves. We cannot bring about our own salvation.

[wmfinck]

Once again, I apologize for not being able to read the entire thread. However I have to address this one point of grammar.

The Greek word immediately following "ekcheo (G1632) is "epi" (G19090 and is a preposition in the accusative which can mean, according to Friburg "hostility against." It is so translated here:

KJV Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up AGAINST their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

In truth, the Greek word epi is only a preposition which means on or upon, and literally means little else.

By itself, epi does NOT mean against or hostility against.

However with certain verbs and with nouns of certain cases, the preposition epi may be translated as against in certain contexts.

You can fight with someone, and you can describe that action as a fight against someone. BUT that does not mean that the word with means "hostility against"!

So we must be careful to distinguish the possibilities of meaning when translating a word in certain contexts from the literal meaning of the word itself.

[Meggie]

In truth, the Greek word epi is only a preposition which means on or upon, and literally means little else.

By itself, epi does NOT mean against or hostility against.

However with certain verbs and with nouns of certain cases, the preposition epi may be translated as against in certain contexts.

You can fight with someone, and you can describe that action as a fight against someone. BUT that does not mean that the word with means "hostility against"!

So we must be careful to distinguish the possibilities of meaning when translating a word in certain contexts from the literal meaning of the word itself.

Hi Bill,

Again I agree with you. I'm not saying the word "epi" in and of itself means "hostility against." I'm saying in the context of the verse in question Onan went against God. That would imply hostility. I only put the word "hostility" in to clarify what I see the verse saying. The intent of Onan was one of hostility.

[Meggie]

Meggie wrote

What I see in this event is God bringing to fruition his plan (Isa 46: 10-11, 48:3; Pro 19:21). Onan was killed by God, IMHO because of his evil intentions toward God, His people and His plan. Note, the Law of God does not call for the death of a brother that refuses to bring up seed to his deceased brother (Deut 25:5-10). God had purposed that the lineage of Christ be pure and He brought it about inspite of the stiff necked Judah (Isa 14:24).

I agree, Onan could not do well. I think it is wrong to assume that Onan could have done well somehow, could have acted differently, and then polluted the line of Christ. Abraham had Isaac when he was a hundred years old, God will preserve His people. Despite themselves. We cannot bring about our own salvation.

I completely agree! We stiff necked Israelites are always trying to help God complete His plan. We seem to be always trying to show Him how to improve upon it. When I read on SF some of the anti-Christian diatribes I have to laugh. These people are oh so intelligent when they espouse their religion of Darwinism using all the evolutionary jargon to "sound' intelligent. Amazingly they claim to be against the Jews, but adhere to a religion the "The Protocols of Zion" claim the Jews help give birth to.

They fail to see that the evil that has beset the white nations of the world all at the same time could only come about via of God. Yet they give that power to the very "people" whom they claim they are fighting. I think the word "stiff-necked" includes a very "liberal" dose of stupidity.

[Joe]

Meggie wrote

When I read on SF some of the anti-Christian diatribes I have to laugh. These people are oh so intelligent when they espouse their religion of Darwinism using all the evolutionary jargon to "sound' intelligent. Amazingly they claim to be against the Jews, but adhere to a religion the "The Protocols of Zion" claim the Jews help give birth to.

Thinking themselves wise ...and it is funny, it is an appeal to authority, they attach themselves to that cult, to that wide path, so that they can make themselves seem wise. Because they are not.

Many theories of science are simply fairy-tales based on the talmud, it is not science, it is the occult. And then when you question their fairy-tale they will simply adapt it. There is no end to the 'investigation', to the tale they are weaving. Evolution has changed that much, and they are always 'discovering' new things, writing new parts of the tale. Always almost there, on their way to confirming everything they want to be true as they lead us to hell.

[wmfinck]

http://christogenea.org/articles/white-nationalist-cognitive-dissonance

[Meggie]

http://christogenea.org/articles/white-nationalist-cognitive-dissonance

Loved this comment from that article Bill:

"If the Old Testament were really a Jewish book, it would be a book of deception rather than a book of heroism. Samson would have been a banker, or perhaps would have owned a casino. The children of Israel would have invaded the land of Canaan with briefcases rather than with swords. Deuteronomy would have been a manual for bankers and insurance agents. If the Old Testament were really a Jewish book, it would not have scorned prostitution, made death the penalty for sodomy, or absolutely forbid the practice of usury. The Jews are absolutely contrary to the God of the Old Testament, because in truth that God is a Christian God..."

True! Very True indeed!