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Question About Justice

Old Testament religious discussion apart from Biblical history

Question About Justice

Postby Kentucky » Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:17 pm

I received an email the other day and thought I would share it with the forum. It was sent to Pastor Elmore and I from a long time friend.

Mark, Don
Before I start, I want to state that I am not expecting a personal answer w/r to this question as it would take way too long. But I'll pose the question and hope someday that there is a sermon answering these questions. I realize you have sermons queued up for a while, So my basic question is - "why is there not justice?". Now I'll give the details...

Let's start in the Bible. Don and others have made a big deal about Esau being hated by God because he intermarried with the forbidden women. OK, I get it, he was disobedient. But didn't a lot of other Israelites do the same thing and they did not receive God's hatred? Didn't Solomon marry forbidden women? And he got to write portions of the Bible.

How about Ahab. Wasn't Jezebel a forbidden woman. I know Ahab repented...so God was nice to him and God's wrath did not come until after his death. Then other people were punished?? Kind of like having two sons and punishing the opposite son when one of them does wrong??

And one more - David. OK, David murdered someone ... and never received the death penalty?? Doesn't God's law apply to royalty? And the it was his sons and the nation which suffered. David did not have to suffer as much as I would want him to. He also got to write some Psalms. And the line of Christ came through him and Bathsheba???? Sounds like his sins were blessed after his death?? I know Absalom was a thorn in his side, but David never got his just deserves. IMO David was just a dirt bag. Sorry if I don't worship him as much as everyone else. I use worship loosely of course. Do we all get to kill someone, repent and then not get punished? And then have the line of Christ come through us? Seems like I read from a sermon somewhere??? that one of the curses of David was that Israel would be constantly at war? Maybe my memory is wrong here. If that is true, do all of us know why we are even being punished? That is the problem with punishing posterity. They don't even know what or why something is wrong??????

Punishing one's posterity makes some sense, but certainly not as much as I would like

In the modern day, of course we have Hillary and many others. Hillary is a life long criminal as you know. She is also part Jewish - that is my understanding. So she will not have to worry about missing out on the Kingdom for her sins. She is judging us, I understand that part of it. We are getting our just deserves. But she will never get hers. Even if she has a horrible death, but it will be fast and never come close to paying for all the people she has murdered, etc... In the end there will be no just punishment (suffering)... IMO anyway.

That should frame the question I hope. You can not satisfy my misunderstanding of this issue with a few short sentences or even paragraphs,.. So maybe you guys can place this in your list of sermon and handle it somewhere in the future.

I may have suffered from bad memory in some of the above facts. I did not fact check what I wrote. But generally, none of this makes much sense to me.

Thanks, *****


Appreciate any comments .

Mark
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Re: Question About Justice

Postby Nayto » Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:18 pm

In my opinion it's sometimes difficult to see the forest for the trees when reading through accounts of individuals.

I always assumed that Malachi was referring to the progeny of those men, as Jacob/Israel and Esau/Edom are both used interchangeably to refer to each respective individual and progeny. Even when Paul quotes that verse, he is referring to election of peoples and not the individuals. I'm sure we'll see Esau in the next life and give him a whack upside the head.

With regards to royalty there is an important lesson to learn in Scripture I think. "Royalty" in Scripture are only men, which is why the system is so imperfect and why God did not want to give them kings in the first place. One can sit and ponder for a good amount of time on the dynamics of leaders in God's Kingdom. We seem to suffer without strong leaders and yet we suffer with them because they are inevitably flawed.

The law was never written for kings, but rather for the entirety of Israel. Corporate Israel is responsible for keeping the laws and at the end of the day an incompetent ruler is just no excuse. They chose to have kings over them and therefor they are accountable for the leadership of the kings in terms of the law. If a king makes bad decisions and the people follow, it is the fault of the king and the people. It makes sense that everyone would be punished.

Sometimes if there is a strong enough leader, maybe the net effect of their leadership is positive in spite of their flaws and failures. Maybe even though they have sinned, they are still doing better than what anyone in that time could do. If only the individuals were capable of following the law and pleasing their God without a strong leader, but we know by now that this is not likely. Christ will succeed where everyone else failed and therein lies our hope.

In Ahab's case if he repented and changed his ways then it is understandable that God afforded him forgiveness. I don't think that Israel suffered after Ahab's death for Ahab's sins.

I actually gave the situation with David a lot of thought a while back because I felt the same way. Firstly, people tend to forget about the young David who said things like this:

But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it. Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God. The Lord who rescued me from the paw of the lion and the paw of the bear will rescue me from the hand of this Philistine."


David said to the Philistine, “You come against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I come against you in the name of the Lord Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the Lord will deliver you into my hands, and I’ll strike you down and cut off your head. This very day I will give the carcasses of the Philistine army to the birds and the wild animals, and the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel. All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the Lord saves; for the battle is the Lord’s, and he will give all of you into our hands.”


Make no mistake, David was a paragon of men who lead Israel to great victories and furthered it immensely. He was a man and he was far from perfect. He definitely made mistakes and corporate Israel suffered as a result, because they are accountable for keeping the law. In the end, the net effect of David's leadership was by far in the positive.

Yes, he acted like a dirt bag when he had another man killed so that he could be with his wife. However in the narrative upon his crime being made known to him and upon realisation of his sin, David is immediately resentful of his actions. He doesn't make any bones about the fact that he has done wrong. Also consider how quick he was to avenge a man who had lost his sheep; David clearly had a great love for his own people and for justice. It's too bad he had this lapse in judgement.

He had the choice whether to live in his own isolation and persecution or to let Israel suffer for a time. If we ponder this choice it's actually not as simple as one might think. If it were any of us we'd think, "Well I'll obviously send myself into persecution for the sake of my kindred." But we ought to dig a little deeper. We can see in 1 Kings 11 that God withheld His wrath on Solomon for David's sake. Clearly God loved David because of David's devotion to the extent where God withheld his wrath on others. This principle is also clear in Numbers 25 with Phineas. Now it is possible that God in His righteous anger would no longer withhold His wrath against Israel for their sins. Israel, even in that time, was deserving of punishment. They never quite got rid of all the mongrels and idols. Remember that Israel is accountable for its own sin, not David! Yet for the sake of David the wrath of God was withheld until after Solomon!

Now David must have been aware of the effect of his leadership over Israel and all he had done for Israel. It is not inconceivable that David was petrified of what Israel might get up to without leadership for years. Moses was up on Sinai for a much shorter period and when he returned Israel was already worshiping idols. How much more would they fall into sin without David for seven years?! I think that David made this calculation and thought that the net effect of Israel's suffering would be greater without his own leadership than with them suffering under his leadership. If David was angry at a man being robbed of his sheep, imagine how much more it must grieve David to see his people suffer. I don't think that this was a decision David made lightly and with all this in mind I don't begrudge him that decision at all.

Hillary Clinton is just a rod of chastisement against Israel. She is judging Israel because Israel fails to judge itself. We are not bloodthirsty niggers who demand rape and torture for our enemies. Our point is to serve God and to love our people. In order to achieve that our enemies need to die. That is all they deserve. Nothing more and nothing less. She will not "pay" for those she has murdered because there is no covenant with her or her misbegotten kind. The fate of her entire satanic race is death, to the extent where it will be as if they have never existed. The fate of Israel, in spite of these supposed injustices, is everlasting life and to reign with God! A White child who hangs out with a nigger at school and suffers as a result is chastised for their own sin, but he will still sit at his father's table. Why should we care about the fate of the nigger, except that it dies?

I've written this out all rather quickly and haven't reread it because I need to hit the sack, so please excuse any errors.
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Re: Question About Justice

Postby Joe » Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:17 am

Well Nayto has inspired me to learn more about Kind David in his early years. And as Nayto said, Esau will be preserved but his progeny will not be, so that solves a lot of the question here since it was based on comparisons to Esau.

But the one that is difficult is David, I suppose God will have mercy on who He will.
From Matthew Henry.
Yet he pronounces a sentence of death upon the child, 2Sa_12:14. Behold the sovereignty of God! The guilty parent lives, and the guiltless infant dies; but all souls are his, and he may, in what way he pleases, glorify himself in his creatures.


I had a similar question, that I think is very much in line with this topic.
Are we suffering for the sins of our fathers?,
I do not think so. I think we have to distinguish between national and individual sin, as Nayto touched upon. But when considering the child, I don't know whether it was killed because of David's sin or because God willed it. The reason is given:

2Sa 12:14 Only because thou hast given great occasion of provocation to the enemies of the Lord by this thing, thy son also that is born to thee shall surely die.


These first quotes say that sons do bear the iniquities of the fathers.
(Exodus 20:5)--"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
(Deuteronomy 5:9)--"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
(Exodus 34:6-7)--"Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
(1 Cor. 15:22)--"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."


But here we see that sons should not bear the punishment for their father's sin.
(Deuteronomy 24:16)--"Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
(Ezekiel 18:20)--"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."


A lot of scoffers say that there is a contradiction in the Bible concerning justice because it seems that in some cases sons do bear the iniquity of their fathers, while in the second quote they do not.

I think the first quotes are referring to national sin while the second quotes are referring to individual sin. This is something I think Nayto touched on in his response. I wonder what others here think, would they come to the same conclusion. That sons should not bear the sins of their fathers unless we are talking about national sin (idolatry etc).
...and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
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Re: Question About Justice

Postby Kentucky » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:58 pm

I asked our long time friend for some clarification as to his inquiry and this was his reply:

Here are a few points which have never made sense to me: I am working from memory, so don't hold me to every detail.

Never understood why Esau was singled out to receive God's hate. Many others have sinned the same way he did. Why doesn't God hate them?

Punishment goes through posterity. OK, I understand no one wants to mess up their children's life, but truth is all this happens after the person is dead. Why did not David receive the death penalty and why did he get to write the Bible?

Solomon - didn't he marry foreign non Israelite women? So how did he get to write the Bible? And what separates him from Esau? Didn't they both commit the same sin?

Jezebel - Yes, she received a horrible death - fell from a building and dogs ate her blood in the streets. But falling from a building she probably died upon hitting the ground, so she never knew about dogs... And then there is Tyndale who was burned at the stake. How was that justice? Given a choice, I'd rather die like Jezebel than Tyndale. Get it over fast.

Ahab- Repented so he did not receive judgement as much as his posterity???

Modern day elites who rule us. They just die and pass on. I understand they are here to judge us for our disobedience, but in the end I'd like to see them receive some just rewards also!!!! Most just pass and most live long lives (Soros and Rothchilds).

When posterity is punished, do they even know why they are punished? Is this effective punishment? Are all those involved in the 70x7 year punishment even aware of the circumstances they are in and why?


Good questions. Responses welcomed.

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Re: Question About Justice

Postby Fenwick » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:29 pm

The way I have seen it explained, which sort of paraphrases what Nayto said, is that God knows what is truly in men's hearts. The assembly or the court or the king or whoever is passing judgment, can only rely on witness evidence when making judgment. They have more of a black or white, guilty or not guilty decision to make, but God knows when a man is truly repentant, and he knows when to be lenient, if they will serve his purpose in future.
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Re: Question About Justice

Postby Nayto » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:06 pm

This is how I see it:

Kentucky wrote:Never understood why Esau was singled out to receive God's hate. Many others have sinned the same way he did. Why doesn't God hate them?


It's not Esau specifically who God hates, but rather Esau's progeny who collectively are referred to as Esau/Edom, just as we can collectively be referred to as Jacob/Israel.

Kentucky wrote:Punishment goes through posterity. OK, I understand no one wants to mess up their children's life, but truth is all this happens after the person is dead. Why did not David receive the death penalty and why did he get to write the Bible?


I agree with Fenwick here.

Kentucky wrote:Solomon - didn't he marry foreign non Israelite women? So how did he get to write the Bible? And what separates him from Esau? Didn't they both commit the same sin?


I've heard/read two or three sermons on this over the years, but I'd have to brush up my knowledge of the facts here.

Kentucky wrote:Jezebel - Yes, she received a horrible death - fell from a building and dogs ate her blood in the streets. But falling from a building she probably died upon hitting the ground, so she never knew about dogs... And then there is Tyndale who was burned at the stake. How was that justice? Given a choice, I'd rather die like Jezebel than Tyndale. Get it over fast.


Who cares how traumatic her death was? Are we to delight in torture like niggers do? I think the point of the dogs was simply that Elijah had prophesied that she would die in a specific way. This came to pass, demonstrating the truth of Elijah's words and the power of God.

Kentucky wrote:Ahab- Repented so he did not receive judgement as much as his posterity???


God's wrath was stayed on Ahab's house until Ahab's death as a result of Ahab humbling himself. If we were to assume that God was being unfair, then we would have to assume that Ahab's house were perfect in their actions. Ahab received this grace because he humbled himself in spite of sin. His posterity inevitably sinned and probably got what they deserved. Except they got it after Ahab's death so that he wouldn't have to see it.

Kentucky wrote:Modern day elites who rule us. They just die and pass on. I understand they are here to judge us for our disobedience, but in the end I'd like to see them receive some just rewards also!!!! Most just pass and most live long lives (Soros and Rothchilds).


Psalm 73 wrote:1 Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.
2 But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped.
3 For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4 For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm.
5 They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men.
6 Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them as a garment.
7 Their eyes stand out with fatness: they have more than heart could wish.
8 They are corrupt, and speak wickedly concerning oppression: they speak loftily.
9 They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth.
10 Therefore his people return hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung out to them.
11 And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High?
12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
13 Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
14 For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
15 If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children.
16 When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.
19 How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.
20 As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt despise their image.
21 Thus my heart was grieved, and I was pricked in my reins.
22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.
23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.
26 My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.
27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.
28 But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.


Kentucky wrote:When posterity is punished, do they even know why they are punished? Is this effective punishment? Are all those involved in the 70x7 year punishment even aware of the circumstances they are in and why?


We deserve more punishment than that. It is only God's grace which cuts it off. As long as Israel sins continually, then we will continually be punished.
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