Redemption, Salvation, Judgement....

[matthewott]

During the Christogenos radio show last night (12/04/09), there was a lengthy chatroom discussion about who was 'saved': All of Israel or the righteous of Israel. I sided with Commander000McBragg in feeling that only the righteous were 'saved'. At the end of the show, Bill, you pointed out some verses from Isaiah and/or Jeremiah stating ALL is 'saved'. I am realizing the whole point to the lengthy discussion which pretty much ended with Mcbragg leaving the chatroom threatening not to return (which I feel is quite a shame), was actually being missed. I believe an examination of what it means to be 'saved', 'redeemed', 'judged', 'forgiven', 'pardoned', etc. needs to be undertaken. I feel there is a lot of confusion in CI as to what we view is 'salvation'. This seems to me of great importance for is this not the reason for our material existence? I am leaning towards an understanding that the simplicity of Heaven and Hell is a modern Judeo-Christian concept. With that in mind, I now throw out a number of questions to get this debate started.
1. If all of Israel is saved, why is the road to salvation narrow and seldom traveled? wouldn't it be broad and well traveled just by virtue of inheritance?
2. Are there then different levels of salvation? Yahshua said to the crucified thief "today you will be with me in paradise", but 3 days later says to Mary "do not touch me for I have not yet ascended to my Father"; does this mean there are different levels of heaven?
3. Are all Israelites saints, or just the righteous ones?
4. Is 'Judgement Day' the time when all the PREDETERMINED judgements are meted out?
5. Since all of our ancestors are physically dead, but spiritually saved, where do their spirits reside? Are they sleeping? Are only the saints 'awake' and residing with Yahweh, as evident during Yahshua's transfiguration?

I actually have many more, but I don't want to get carried away. I hope this may be a start to a much needed clarification. I invite everyone to give their opinion.

Thanks, Matt

[SwordBrethren]

Jeremiah 50:20 talks about all the sins of all of the REMNANT being forgiven. If the remnant constituted everybody then it wouldn't be a remnant.

If this sort of universal salvation were true, then there wouldn't be any point to doing talk-shoe programs or anything of that sort, would there? If we are all saved in the end no matter what our conduct or our belief, then we don't need to do anything, be it related to works or to faith, in which case life would be meaningless and scripture would be worthless as it wouldn't count for anything. Certainly the law would be worthless.


We are told that the blind leaders of the blind are going to wind up in the ditch along with those they misled. This doesn't sound good to me... I wouldn't want to wind up in the ditch...


Revelation chapter 20 tells us...

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


There is going to be death in this life and for some, death in the life to come, the second death. Why else would it mention in Revelation that Yahweh will put an end to all crying and there will be no more tears? It may seem like speculation or guessing, but I would have to assume the kingdom is going to be perfect and somebody isn't going to cry over missing out on an upcoming movie that isn't coming out due to the movie industry being gone... My guess would be that the crying will be do to their realization that they are missing some key family members (a man's foes shall be they of his own household) in so much that they did not make the grade/cut and thus they suffered because of their disgusting conduct and were cast into the lake of fire.

The gospels, particularly Matthew, are full of references to unproductive servants, wicked men, etc, being handed over to tormentors, with much accompanying weeping and gnashing of teeth, or being tossed into the outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth.




1 Corinthians 6:

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Matthew 12:

31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


There's not going to be a single race mixer in the kingdom, even if said race-mixer is a pure blooded white man/woman, they give up their place in eternity when they bed down with a beast. I wouldn't want to spend eternity in the kingdom with the race-mixers and their abominable spawn. That to me would be the kingdom of hell, not the kingdom of heaven. Why would Yahweh stock His kingdom full of the very people who His Son said will never be forgiven? Is the Father in conflict with the son?

Some people point to the fact that it is written that "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess..." well it is also written in Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 that the false "synagogue of satan" (false Israel- aka Jewry) will confess their lies and admit that Whites are True Israel, but that doesn't mean they are going to be accepted and allowed into the Kingdom, does it? To me that means they are going to be made to finally admit the truth and then tossed into hell or destroyed. I believe the same goes for those offending Whites, they will bow their knees but Yahweh will have none of it, He will spit them out of His mouth as one spits out lukewarm water, and toss them into hell. Nothing that offends shall be allowed into the Kingdom, EVER.

There is nothing a Jew can do to please Yahweh, the same is true for a race-mixer. Just because Jews will, in the last days, fall to their knees and confess that they are Esau Edom, does not mean they get into the Kingdom. Just because a race-mixer happens to be White by blood, does not mean he/she will get into the Kingdom.

I wouldn't want to be part of any Kingdom that has standards so low as to admit the likes of miscegenators such as Heidi Klum, to say nothing of Jews such as Alan Greenspan and Barbara Streisand.

That is where the nonsense about "All of Israel shall be redeemed" will ultimately lead. If people twist, distort, or simply misunderstand passages dealing with the redemption of Israelites to say that even race-mixing Israelites are reedemed (they are NOT), it won't be long before they look at Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 through the same broken lens and conclude that Jews will be redeemed because it says that they confess the truth in the end. It is universalism and I regard it as very dangerous and anti-scriptural.


There is a hell, it is a nasty place, and a lot of Whites are going to be there. This is something that people simply need to accept, deal with, and move on to continue contending for the faith and doing what matters. If somebody genuinely believes every single White person is redeemed simply by virtue of being White, then we need to stop everything we are doing now because in that case the law would be unnecessary, the prophets would be unnecessary, the judgements would be unnecessary, nothing would be necessary and it would all be pointless.

[PILGRIM]

Hey matthewott! You have brought up some great questions that I'm sure will bring in a whole variety of responses. (I agree with you, BTW - I hope hot tempers won't prevail and that the Commander will not leave the group over some doctrinal issues that no one can prove absolutely conclusively at this point anyway).

I tend to agree with those that say not everyone is going to be "saved". However, there are things like this that need to be addressed:

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Rom 11:26)

I am sure Bill will be able to address any mistranslation issues that may exist here or in other scriptures that may be cited.

I certainly like the idea of all Israel being saved. Wesley Swift taught that we, as children of Yahweh, were pre-existent with Him before all this creation stuff and before being sent into these flesh tents to walk around as amnesiacs in this life for awhile. I've never seen anyone conclusively support or demolish this theory. If he is correct that would throw a whole new wrinkle into the discussion. Knowing what was to come, would Yahweh send millions upon millions of His children into this snake pit only for the vast majority of them to be lost?

As for Swordbrethren's remark about why would we be going through spreading the gospel, having TalkShoe programs, etc. if everything were predetermined with regard to "salvation" I would only say that Jesus gave the command to go out and do it .... so we do it. That in itself is not an argument against the salvation of all Israel. I tend to think that we are all here, in part, as a sort of schooling and all of this is just part of the overall curriculum. I also am of the mind that a lot more is "predetermined" than many may think.

As for who goes where when and for how long, you should read Enoch if you haven't already, it provides some food for thought. I do not subscribe to this "sleeping" theory - you have an eternal spirit, it is going to be somewhere and conscious ... We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2Co 5:8). Of course, this has no meaning for those who would toss out two thirds of the New Testament, but they have bigger issues to deal with than "sleeping or awake".

This should prove to be an interesting thread but I doubt very much that we will ultimately resolve this question once an for all! We are not going to know everyihing on this side of things, for some things we can discuss but ultimately we will just have to wait and have faith.

[matthewott]

Thank you Swordbrethren. Bringing up the point of the Remnant was very relevant to this subject and answers a question that I didn't bother to post. I think the verses which state ALL Israel is saved are references to all Israelites given the OPPORTUNITY to get in the good graces of Yahweh. This is the view that McBragg and I held and was the main point of contention. But this only answers a small part of my initial question base.

Yesterday, I attended a Christian rock music event and met a gentleman who may have answered my questions pertaining to different levels of heaven, where our ancestors are, and what paradise means. He related paradise to Abraham's Bosom (which I recognize but do not remember it as either Catholic doctrine or actually scriptural), a section of hell reserved for the sons and daughters of Yahweh where they patiently wait, UNMOLESTED by Lucifer, for the Second Coming of Yahshua and Judgement Day. Anyone else with another understanding?

[egerkurt]

Hello Matt:

I am new to the forum. This is a most important subject because this is what our study is all about. I have only recently returned to reading scripture and therefore I defer to Pastors James, Johns and Finck on the weighty scriptural matters. But I think we need to know what exactly is meant by the words Redemption, Salvation and Judgment. Sword Brethren has given verses to support his argument and I believe this is the only way to proceed.

But I was reading one of Dr. Wesley Swift's sermons where he spoke about the "Lake of Fire" and what exactly that was. If I understand his explanation correctly it is not a place of eternal torment for the heathen and uncooperative Adamites but a place called Ara out on the far reaches of the universe where the wayward will be smelted and refined and eventually returned to the Father, not tortured into submission. As I understand it this does not give Adamites license to deny Yahshua and to sin. And it does not give Israelites the option to deny their calling because they were/are Yahweh's issue. Dr. Swift maintained (I'm sure there must be scripture to support it) that Adamites are of Yahweh and therefore cannot be lost spiritually regardless of how they behave. But that does not mean that all Adamites will inherit the Kingdom. I believe that all Adamites will be REDEEMED but only some will be SAVED for the Kingdom. All mankind including the other races will be judged but by standards different than for Adamites.

Again, I am not so well versed in scripture but I believe that the Kingdom of Heaven will come to Earth and it will be inhabited by and administrated over by the remnant of True Israel because only they will be worthy of that honor and responsibility.

[matthewott]

Hi egerkurt!

I'd like to start by apologizing to PILGRIM for not acknowledging her very insightful reply to this thread. It seems this topic hit an early wall and had gone to the wayside until you 'resurrected' it, egerkurt. Since I posted this thread, my further studies brought me more answers to some of my posted questions on this thread, and may have taken shape in this lengthy thread...viewtopic.php?f=9&t=233
If I remember Dr. Swift's "lake of fire" sermon, it is the one that brings up "shekina" in what seems to be the wrong context. There are also a couple other points that I, and others, view as "a little iffy". While Dr. Swift was a brilliant man and on the forefront of modern DSL CI, some of his doctrine is hard to validate in a scholarly, fact finding fashion.

Again, I am not so well versed in scripture but I believe that the Kingdom of Heaven will come to Earth and it will be inhabited by and administrated over by the remnant of True Israel because only they will be worthy of that honor and responsibility.

I believe it is safe to say that everyone here (true DSL CI adherents) will agree with you there.

[matthewott]

As I understand it this does not give Adamites license to deny Yahshua and to sin. And it does not give Israelites the option to deny their calling because they were/are Yahweh's issue. Dr. Swift maintained (I'm sure there must be scripture to support it) that Adamites are of Yahweh and therefore cannot be lost spiritually regardless of how they behave. But that does not mean that all Adamites will inherit the Kingdom. I believe that all Adamites will be REDEEMED but only some will be SAVED for the Kingdom. All mankind including the other races will be judged but by standards different than for Adamites.

I agree. That is pretty much how I see it at this point in my studies. Right on, Kurt.