Are the Dead Alive Now? (NO, if you are a Sadducee!)

[Mountainman]

This thread is inspired by the book titled Are the Dead Alive Now? By Victor Paul Wierwille.

I believe this book makes a good case that God’s Word teaches that “God is NOT the God of the dead, he is the God of the Living.” Life after death is the original lie of the Adversary “you shall NOT surely die.” It’s the Pagan Gods that the House of Israel went whoring after that teaches in life after death, the afterlife, the underworld, the book of the dead, etc.

God’s Word teaches in life after resurrection from the dead and there is only ONE person raised from the dead with eternal life spiritual body – Jesus Christ.

The verses in the Bible that seem to teach otherwise are misquoted or understood.

If you believe otherwise “let’s roll” as Wm Finck would say.

Ya Bless!
Mountain Man

[wmfinck]

Okay, Please explain these:

1) How Abraham saw Yahshua's day.

2) Who was Christ talking with at the transfiguration on the mount.

I reserve the right to lengthen this list as I get more time, however I didn't want to leave the thread hanging.

[JamesTheJust]

Matthew 27

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.

52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Matthew 22

23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question.

24 "Teacher," they said, "Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him.
...
29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

[Mountainman]

1) How Abraham saw Yahshua's day.

A: In his foreknowledge.

2) Who was Christ talking with at the transfiguration on the mount.

A: As I recall Christ said "Tell no man of the VISION." Just like Peter had a vision of unclean animals.

WmFinck: Are there ANY historical accounts recorded of Mathew 27: 52-53 that James the Just referenced?

James the Just I will get back with you on Mathew 27: 52-53 soon.



re: 29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.


Christ is talking about life after the resurection - not life after death. Death is an enemy.

[wmfinck]

From the Christogenea New Testament:
"XVII 1 And after six days Yahshua takes Petros and Iakobos and Iohannes his brother and brings them up onto a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transformed before them, and His face shined like the sun, and His garments became white like light. 3 And behold! Moses appeared to them, and Elijah, speaking together with Him. 4 Then responding Petros said to Yahshua: 'Prince, it is good for us to be here! If You desire, I shall make here three tents, one for You and one for Moses and one for Elijah!' 5 Yet upon His speaking, behold! A bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold! A voice from the cloud saying 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am pleased. You hear Him!' 6 And hearing it the students had fallen upon their faces and feared exceedingly. 7 And Yahshua came forth and taking hold of them said 'Arise and do not fear!' 8 Then raising their eyes they saw no one except Yahshua Himself only.
"9 And upon their descending from the mountain Yahshua commanded them saying 'Tell no one of this sight until when the Son of Man has been raised from the dead!'"

The word is "sight", not "vision" which in modern times, as you infer, implies something not real. The Greek word is ὅραμα hopama, and it means "that which is seen, a sight, spectacle", which is how Liddell & Scott have the word defined. The Greeks had another word which they used to describe the sort of "vision" which you suppose this to be, and that is φάντασμά, phantasma, which actually does appear in the context of an unreal vision at Matthew 14:26 and Mark 6:49. But the apostles did not see a φάντασμά, they saw an ὅραμα, a sight, not a vision, on the mount with Christ. Peter did not want to put up tents for apparitions, and Christ was not talking to apparitions. So your reasoning fails miserably.

John 8:56 (CNT):"Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see My day, and he has seen and is delighted." Where does this say anything about forethought? And if Abraham saw it in forethought, why would he need to "rejoiced that he would see", if he had already seen? Why do you add words to Scripture, and then make your own doctrine? Again I suggest to you, to go read the paper I wrote last week on Biblical exegesis, because your methods are entirely wanting.

Matthew 22:32, (CNT): "'I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaak and the God of Jakob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living!'" Abraham and Isaak and Jakob are living indeed. So are the rest of our race, which is why at 1 Peter 2:18-20 we read (CNT):"18 Because Christ also suffered once for all errors, the just on behalf of the unjust, in order that He may lead you to Yahweh, indeed dying in the flesh
but being made to live by the Spirit. 19 At which also going He proclaimed to those spirits in prison, 20 who at one time had been disobedient – when the forbearance of Yahweh awaited in the days of Noah’s preparing the vessel in which a few, that is eight souls, had been preserved through the water." Those "spirits in prison" were the dead who passed even before the flood!

Saul spoke to Samuel after Samuel had died. Paul talks about the existence of the consciousness independent from the body. There are many other places I can go with this. You deny the spiritual world. If you deny the spiritual world, that would make you a modern-day Sadducee!

[wmfinck]

...
WmFinck: Are there ANY historical accounts recorded of Mathew 27: 52-53 that James the Just referenced?
...

When I translated the New Testament, I did it without any preconception of what any passages should say, or whether I thought that they belonged in the Scripture. Rather, the criteria for my including a passage in the text of my translation is whether or not the passage is consistently attested to in the oldest manuscripts. It is always nice to have them, of course, but the Bible proves itself whether they exist or not. The passage at Matthew 27:52-53 is certainly attested to consistently by all of the oldest manuscripts.

I must say, that it matters not whether there are "historical accounts" of any Scriptural event. If that is your criteria, throw your Bible in the trash now and run off to join the Scientologists, because everybody knows that L. Ron Hubbard really existed. Just ask John Travolta.

[Mountainman]

WMF>>>The word is "sight", not "vision" which in modern times, as you infer, implies something not real. The Greek word is ὅραμα hopama,

ME>>> Per my Young’s Concordance, the word translated “Vision” in Matthew 17:9 is the same word translated for Peter’s “vision” of unclean food in Acts 10:3, 10:17, 10:19, and 11:5. In fact listen to this... Acts 11:5 where Peter is relating his vision to the “brethren in Judaea” “ I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a TRANCE I saw a *vision*” Are you saying that a literal “sheet” came down with unclean food/animals in it? And he heard voices too!

I don’t think so.

WMF>>> 1 Peter 3:19 “Those "spirits in prison" were the dead who passed even before the flood!”

Me>> Dang – I thought this passage was about the fallen angles being in prison! Are you saying that when Christians die they go to “prison”??? I think not! I think they are the Jude 6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting CHAINS under darkness unto the judgment of the great day”

WmF>>>Saul spoke to Samuel after Samuel had died.

Yes but, 1 Samuel 16:14 “ But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.” ‘Evil Spirit from the Lord’ refers to the God of this World IMO. Also, I’m sure that he is later rebuked for consulting the familiar spirit from the Prophetess of Endor.

I’ll have to wait until tomorrow to reply to Matthew 27: 52-53.

[PILGRIM]

Question to William Finck:

I have not really familiarized myself much with cults and their teachings, I've just made a general practice of staying away from them once discovered. When these people show up with these very odd interpretations of scriptures here and in the chats at Talkshoe, do you think they are mostly just mavericks working up their own private versions of Christianity or are they reflecting the influence and teachings of any particular cult groups?

Question to Mountainman:

If I am understanding you correctly, you are claiming that after death is oblivion? If that is what you are getting out of the Word, then why in the world are you in the least interested in or concerned with Yahweh and His Word? If that is what you believe is the case, why aren't you out partying or doing whatever floats your boat while you can?

[Mountainman]

Pilgrim>>> If I am understanding you correctly, you are claiming that after death is oblivion?

Yes. I believe that God’s Word teaches that after death you return to the dust from which we came. Our bodies rot and decay.

Pilgrim>>>If that is what you are getting out of the Word, then why in the world are you in the least interested in or concerned with Yahweh and His Word? If that is what you believe is the case, why aren't you out partying or doing whatever floats your boat while you can?

We have the resurrection from the dead to look forward to.

You mentioned possible bad ramifications from this teaching.... do what you want, party, etc.

I believe there are bad ramifications from teaching the dead are alive now.
First, many “Christians” I talk to have a very passive, selfish view about society, politics etc. They have been taught that “life is suppose to suck. I can’t wait to die! Then it will get better!”

Also, why does man need a saviour if there is life after death? The devil spirits provide lots of “familiar” spirits for people to talk to in visions etc. “Ye shall NOT surely die” the adversary said. He is still promoting that lie today.

So the erroneous teaching of “life after death” leads to a life-hating apathy and opens the door for devil spirit communication. “Honey is that you? I miss you! Should I blow my brains out and join you?”

Please stay tuned. When I get a chance I will post Wierwille’s comments on Matthew 27: 52-53. I would love to hear what you people have to say because I am very impressed by the knowledge you have.

[Mountainman]

We need to discuss the word translated as 'Hell."

WF's translation in the NT is left in it's Greek form. "Gehenna" Wierwille says "Gehenna" is the dump outside of the city and it burned 24/7 x 365. It is not "hell" the underworld rather hell-fire a place here on earth. This dump had everthing burining away - including dead animals. So the vision of continual burning and continual fire and flesh being burnt - was all seen with the eye at a place on earth - the dump or "Gehenna."