The Israelites in Rome

[Zenas]

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Been debating the book of Romans with some univeralists and came up with a couple of questions:

1. How did these Roman Christians get to Rome? Where did they come from? Any ideas?

2. Related, but separate: Scripture doesn't say so, but is it possible that some of the clan of Jacob/Israel that were in Egypt prior to the Exodus w/Moses, could have left Egypt before the "pharaoh" that "knew not Joseph, arose?" Exodus 1:8

3. If #2 is in the affirmative, could some of those "Israelites" moved into the area later known as Rome?

Anyone who can shed some light on these queries, much appreciated.

Z

[Unnamed]

Bill's got an excellent essay on the Rome/Judah connection here. It's an excellent read.

As to your first question: I'm not sure, and no doubt others here can answer better than I can, but the message of Christ spreads quickly through the Empire. I personally think you'll find Joseph of Arimethea cut through Rome on his way to the British Isles.

[Zenas]

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Thanks for that link, hadn't seen that before you mentioned it.

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If Paul is addressing Israelites in Romans, who are the "uncircumcised" in Romans 2:26, etc?

Why doesn't Paul say "One by appearance is not an Israelite" instead of "One by appearance is not a Judaean" in 2:28?

[JamesTheJust]

One thing you can always use on the Universalists is the COMMAND of Yahshua to the Apostles to go only to the lost (put away) sheep of the House of Israel. Since we know that the Apostles went to Rome (and other parts of Europe) then that MUST be where the Lost Sheep were!

Sincere faith alone should absolutely dictate that ANY command given by Yahshua over rides any other misconception had by the Univeralists; otherwise they are either calling Yahshua a LIAR or they are stating that the Apostles DELIBERATELY disobeyed the command of our King; thus destroying (or at least drawing into question) every chapter and verse of the New Testament.

So my ultimate question to the Universalists is; who are you going to believe; the false Baal priests or The Word of Yahshua HIMSELF?

[Zenas]

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The universalist I talk to simply respond that yes, the Lord told the disciples to go to the house of Israel, but that was early on. At the end, He commanded them, "Ge ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved:." Mark 16:15,16

[matthewott]

Zenas, maybe Bill will correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that verse, actually verses 9-20 of Mark's last chapter (16), even exists in the LXX (Septuagint Greek). If you read those verses, you will notice that they don't "fit" the other gospels, or even fit the linguistic style exhibited the whole way through Mark up to that point. Even if that verse is authentic, it does not prove that Yahshua arbitrarily changed His mind to include "every creature in the world" under the covenant. "World" would have to be "known Adamic world" and "every creature" would have to be a Shemitic idiom of some sort to mean "every Adamite". If you don't read this possibly non-existant verse in this fashion, you are calling Yahshua a LIAR. In addition, the only valid baptism occurring at this point was baptism in the Holy Spirit, not water, as is insinuated in that verse.

Also, was not the Roman empire an Adamic civilization? With Rome being founded by Romulus and Remis under the Wolf ensignia, being of the Tribe of....(darn it, can't find it yet). Besides, the Roman Empire was a perpetuation of the earlier, great Adamic civilization, the Greek Empire.

[Zenas]

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Zenas, maybe Bill will correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that verse, actually verses 9-20 of Mark's last chapter (16), even exists in the LXX (Septuagint Greek).

Point that fact out and they simply turn to Matthew 28:19,20.

[JamesTheJust]

I am not too concerned about reaching those who are already so blind and so lost that no matter what you tell them they always come up with some "smart assed" remark. I have encountered enough of these people to know that they are not looking for anything but confirmation of their own beliefs and they are not seeking any god but the god of their own vein imagination. One must be a seeker in order to "SEE". If the simple and VERY straight forward words of Yahshua HIMSELF cannot convince them, then NOTHING will. Their god is NOT YHWH/Yahshua no matter how they lie to both themselves and others to the contrary. (Shake the dirt from your sandles!)

Having said that; the TOTALITY of scripture must be taken into account. The verses you site in Matthew in NO WAY mean the entire world. In fact that word there is "nations"; meaning the nations of Israel. (And "nations" as we already know, denotes KINSMEN, FAMILIES, TRIBES) We can know this for a fact simply by taking the scripture in its TOTALITY as Yahshua never reversed HIS mandate of going ONLY to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

If you are concerned about getting the message out, that it commendable! But I would not waste my time in trying to reach the staunch Babylonian Universalist. It is truly a waste of time. And no matter what you say, ultimately they are going to go whoring after their own god; the god of the heathen and the Edomite jews. The words of Yahshua HIMSELF mean VERY LITTLE to them unless HIS word just so happens to correspond to their own personal belief system.

As I have said, it is commendable to try and reach our kinspeople (if in fact they are not "broken cisterns") but having presented the evidences, your mission is complete. The rest is up to YHWH.

When I first understood the message of The Kingdom, I was thrilled and wanted all White people to know about it. I was surprised that so many either didn't care or outright rejected such a pure and simple truth. Later it became a test of prideful will in that I was going to prove that I was right! Now, I understand that this message, although so plain and so simple, will not be accepted by most and I'm OK with that. It is not about ME and it is not about THEM, it is about those of YHWH's chosen who will gladly receive the message and grow; and that is all up to YHWH.

[Zenas]

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But I would not waste my time in trying to reach the staunch Babylonian Universalist.
It is truly a waste of time.

Agreed. Pearls/swine. I love the Ignore function on these forums.

But I have to admit, I love playing the cat in the game "Cat and mouse."

[Unnamed]

The verses 9-20 you commonly read are added later in the 2nd century, replacing a previous version.