Are the original fallen angels dead?

[MikeTheAdamite]

Regarding Isaiah 45:7
Would it not be correct in saying that as Yahweh created the angels that left their first estate and commited evil then Yahweh created evil?
So the verse is not only referring to the evils of war and famine but also the Evil beings that resulted from the sin of the angels?

[brucebohn]

Thanks Mark, food for thought indeed.... Another example of how important
fellowship is for our folks, to study, discern, share, maintain focus and
keep our eye on the prize..........

[MikeTheAdamite]

Yes,much to think about!
I shall listen to the kinsman redeemed podcast tomorrow,it.will mAke a change from listening to Christogenea!

[Joe]

Mark says

miscegenation or mad scientists dabbling in GMO's

And what fruits come from such GMO's. They then spread their disease, corrupting all the seed about them, much like race-mixing. The more they look like us, the more dangerous the tares are.

I concur, some great food for thought here. Truly an honour to learn C.I.

[brucebohn]

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create EVIL, I am Yahweh, that doeth all these things." Isaiah: 45: 7

I have found this verse to be one of the most profound and revealing in all scripture..

It's a good one to establish His sovereignty above all things. However, we should not misconstrue the word 'evil' here for the malevolence of the world. The 'evil' that Isaiah is talking about is Divine Judgment such as wars, calamities, storms etc. Bill, in his podcasts of late, has been advocating the origins of the other races through the evil machinations of the "fallen angels" and that God had no part of their creation. The same principle can be said about the offspring of miscegenation or mad scientists dabbling in GMO's i.e. it is not of God. In other words, although God in His infinite wisdom is well aware of man playing God, it is not attributable to Him. "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man" James 1:13. Here's the insanity of universalists who say the other races sprung from Adam (and became diversified) and then did it all over again after the Flood of Noah (a type of fast track evolution) and that it's OK to miscegenate, which ultimately destroys the diversity by homogenization of one mongrel type. What a vicious circle.

Just as the true Israelite/ Judeans were "by design " blinded by Yahweh, so they
would not interfere and prevent the "High Priest's" from nailing our precious Messiah
to the Cross, for, ["it had to be", or else , we would not have salvation,] I am convinced
that we are "ALL", both our Adamic/Israel people, as well as our adversaries, playing the
role that has been pre-ordained! I believe we are here, experiencing both GOOD & EVIL,
to be prepared for our role in the "Kingdom".

Jesus called Peter "Satan" for opposing His destiny. This is one of the toughest things for a Christian to discern when they see or experience both good and evil and think they have to "intervene" to make it right or better. It's a type of cognitive dissonance.

I do believe we have "free will", however
I also believe that our Father , in his infinite wisdom, knew which of us were
going to exercise that free will..." Our father creates all, LIGHT, DARK, PEACE &"EVIL"!
he is in "FULL CONTROL", nothing happens by chance! He does not struggle against
"EVIL", WE DO! In this, I take great comfort..... This is my "humble" opinion..
I would appreciate your thoughts and input folks..... Praise Yahweh

I used to think we have free will, until I got to thinking about God being in control of everything. And if that's true, then we only have the illusion of free will. I had to ask myself: who's in charge? God or me? "For my thoughts are not your thoughts" Isaiah 55:8. Hmm, sounds like an insinuation that a thought crime is in the works. This may give you some food for thought: http://kinsmanredeemer.com/FreeWill.htm

Mark

I have listened to Bill's podcast's for 5 years now and I have much respect and appreciation
for his dedication and diligence in discerning scripture. While I beleive he has much to
offer, I also realize that "no one", as of yet, has all the "answers". I listen, read and pray
so that I may rightly divide the word. I have also read and listened to your work as well
Mark, and appreciate your efforts, again, No one has all of the answers. I understand
that there are some disagreements between the two of you, for instance, you say that
you are not "Dual seedline", quote: [I have been Christian Identity since 1976, but I am not Dual Seedline. I have read just about every expositor for this theory and have come to the conclusion that a bit of a theological shell game has been played upon the casual observer “at a glance.” ]
And in reference to my above statement about "Free Will" and Yahweh knowing in advance
who would, or, would not exercise that "Free Will", this is a statement by Bill, from a
podcast, [sometime back] which made sense to me.. I have read your "food for thought"
article [ illusion of free will ], and it certainly has given me "pause to think" and for now I
cannot say that I dispute it in anyway, but am still in the process of, shall we say,
digesting the message. I want to be careful in voicing opinions, as we all should, for
no one wants to show ignorance, so I think for now I will take the advice found in
(Matthew 13:44-46.) [When one finds the truth, one hides it until he he is assured of himself, that he knows it and can defend it. Once he possesses it with certainty, then he can display it to others, showing that he has it.] and simply backoff for a time and continue to study and pray.
I have recently been dealing with a serious health issue which has become a distraction,
however I refuse to allow it to hinder my studies, only my interactions to a certain extent.
I value the fellowship provided here at the forum and pray for all of the good folks here.
Will continue to study this issue, thanks and Yahweh bless....

[Kentucky]

Mark says

miscegenation or mad scientists dabbling in GMO's

And what fruits come from such GMO's.... The more they look like us, the more dangerous the tares are.

A tare is a weed that looks like wheat. However, when they both mature, the wheat is full of fruited grain and bows, whereas the tare stands up, not bearing fruit, and develops black spots. What a great analogy!!!

Mark

[Kentucky]

I understand that there are some disagreements between the two of you, for instance, you say that
you are not "Dual seedline", quote: [I have been Christian Identity since 1976, but I am not Dual Seedline.

I wrote that before Bill came on the scene and there were malicious elements within CI who would tar and feather you if you didn't march in lockstep with their catholic styled "Satan," which was really the issue, not the two entities of Gen. 3:15. In fact, I do believe in two opposing factions, a 'us vs. them' if you will. But, the party politics of clique theology asserted the misnomer of "one seedliners" or "single seedliner," which is absurd and I don't know anybody who calls themselves that; it comes from those who would 'divide and conquer' Christian Identity. Although there may be some disagreements between, not only Bill and myself, but a bunch of great Christian brothers and sisters, our friendships are solid and none of the provocateurs will ever be able to cut asunder those friendships.

I have recently been dealing with a serious health issue which has become a distraction, however I refuse to allow it to hinder my studies, only my interactions to a certain extent.

Our church will lift you up in corporate prayer for healing ('cause Obamacare aint gonna do it lol). God bless and get healthy.

I value the fellowship provided here at the forum and pray for all of the good folks here.
Will continue to study this issue, thanks and Yahweh bless....

We never stop learning. And may I take this time to wish all the members of this forum a very happy Thanksgiving Day. May the Lord bless thee and keep thee.

Mark

[wmfinck]

While much of what Ken Lent says in his paper on Jude is agreeable, I cannot countenance the idea that the "angels which left their first estate" were somehow fallen Israelites, as Ken seems to insist. It violates the entire sense which Jude is conveying in his epistle. where the apostle is comparing Israelites to these others.

Jude is clearly describing outsiders who had crept in amongst Israelites from the earliest times, in order to corrupt them. These are tares, and not wheat, and the difference is genetic, and not "spiritual" (or even "mental"). I addressed this, at least in part, in the third segment of Pragmatic Genesis.

It is clear, however, that Israelites do indeed follow the pattern of the "fallen angels" again and again, every time they turn from their God and mix with other races.

The "fallen angels" were clearly a "before Adam" race which rebelled from God, confused His creation, and are therefore trapped in "chains of darkness", polluted earthly bodies, awaiting the Lake of Fire where they finally come to an end. This also explains why in the end all non-sheep are goats.

[Kentucky]

While much of what Ken Lent says in his paper on Jude is agreeable, I cannot countenance the idea that the "angels which left their first estate" were somehow fallen Israelites, as Ken seems to insist. It violates the entire sense which Jude is conveying in his epistle. where the apostle is comparing Israelites to these others.

Jude is clearly describing outsiders who had crept in amongst Israelites from the earliest times, in order to corrupt them. These are tares, and not wheat, and the difference is genetic, and not "spiritual" (or even "mental"). I addressed this, at least in part, in the third segment of Pragmatic Genesis.

It is clear, however, that Israelites do indeed follow the pattern of the "fallen angels" again and again, every time they turn from their God and mix with other races.

The "fallen angels" were clearly a "before Adam" race which rebelled from God, confused His creation, and are therefore trapped in "chains of darkness", polluted earthly bodies, awaiting the Lake of Fire where they finally come to an end. This also explains why in the end all non-sheep are goats.

I thought Ken would be interested in the dialogue here, so I forwarded your above commentary. The following is his thoughts and further elucidation on the subject:

I haven't been on Bill's blog to read any of this but just my quick cordial reply to his comments you forwarded:

Christian Identity since the late 60's has always taught that we Israelites "lost our first estate" but we never really used that phrase. It's simply a matter that we don't converse in the exact English as used in the 1611 KJV Bible. We now usually just explain, "Israel sinned against God, lost their nation, was sent into dispersion for 2520 years, then regathered in North America for a second chance" (as given by God again). So this is nothing new, it's just the manner in which we refer to this historic chain of events. As I gave the lawful reference in my article on Jude, "Estate" was an old English common law way of saying "State" today. We are getting another shot at keeping our government here on this continent with The United (E)States of America.

Any Scriptural reference to a civilization before Adam is mentioned right up front in Genesis. It's Nod, where Cain went after the Fall of disobedience Eden. But these Nodite people are never referred to as "angels" anywhere in Scripture. I agree that a very great amount of our current problems are genetic in the traits of different people's of the world. So I surely do believe in "seed line theology". But I do not hold to the view that the "seed line problem (or sin)" was a sexual event starting in Eden between Eve and some sinister male of any race, nor with any evil "spirit being". The adulterated "physical two seed line" starts with Cain and the ungodly women in Nod, just as the Bible tells us. But again, we don't find any Scripture claiming that the Cain/Nod event has a connection with the "fallen angels of Jude" either. "angel" is simply the word "messenger" in Hebrew or Greek. When we start to apply some other meaning to the word things can stray quite easily.

The story found in the book of Jude is positively a reminder and a rehash of Numbers 16 for our current benefit. It is a story of our own household and our own people. We have people of our own stock who are unrepentant sinners and who rebel against Godly authority. Jude vs 4 tells us these were "men"; they were "ungodly sinners/law breakers" v. 15 (law applies only to Israelites); they were "murmurers, complainers, and mockers" (v16,17), and verses 9,10,11 say this was in reference to the trouble Moses had with the congregation (i.e. "the body" of Moses) of the nation in his days. My article on Jude has the Scripture cross checking concerning the words here in Jude that show the event was jurisdictional and national in scope. The "angels" that perished were our own people -- rebels, not a "fallen angelic pre-Adamic race". Psalm 107:4,8,10,11,14,16 even tells us that "being bound in bands of darkness" is unrepentant Israel national rebellion by men. We need to repent or suffer that darkness "forever"-- chained in darkness. Some back then never repented of their rebellion against Moses' authority gifted to him by God.

Jude verse 11 specifically points out that their final "perishing" was after the gainsaying of Core, who is actually Korah in the days of Moses who led a mutiny against Moses within the nation. So we would need to read that story in Num.16 to grasp the intent of Jude.

As far as genetics, Numbers 16 clearly informs us that these rebels mentioned by Jude were Israel Levites and Reubenites who were in revolt against Moses. They weren't non-Israelite wicked races. Numbers 16:1 says that Korah (Core) was of the house Izhar from Levi, and in conjunction with the Reubenites Dathan, Abiram, and On, he led the revolt against Moses. These are malcontents of our own race. We've always had them. Moses had them, King David had them, and we have them with some of our people in Saxon Israel today. We can read the whole account in Numbers chapter 16 to see exactly where Jude is coming from. Korah and his followers were jealous of Moses and Aaron, and they eventually paid the price of their unretrievably bad attitude with their lives. Shortly down the road in Israel history most of the nation (as we today) rejected God's national laws and they ultimately lost their "first (E)state", their first nation of Israel. I realize that there is a big genetic problem with certain races and I don't dispute that. But the reference to "fallen angels" in Scripture and the story in Jude is not about that.

I can't participate in a long "back n forth" over this right now but there is more. Maybe we'll discuss it some time when you are passing by this way. Nobody need agree with what I have commented here, as we realize that honest differences of opinions exist among the brethren -- just some food for thought though. May Jesus Christ bless His remnant unto victory in these end times. God bless, Ken

[wmfinck]

EDIT:

I made the following post forgetting that I had already provided a similar answer above. Forgive my repitition. I will leave it here anyway.

Pastor Ken Lent has looked into Jude further. Ken, as you may know, attended William Potter Gale's church in Mariposa, CA. Gale coined the term 'Christian Identity' and launched Wesley Swift's career. Here's a PDF link to Ken's study: http://ezra98.yolasite.com/resources/EstateAngels.pdf

Mark

I like Ken, and I saw in that paper what he tried to do. The idea is good but I do not accept the application. Of course, the children of Israel who departed from the way can certainly be likened to the angels that sinned, but they cannot be the angels that sinned.

The angels that sinned are: 1) related to that "serpent of old", when there were no Israelites, and 2) depicted as infiltrators into the body of Israel and 3) as beasts made to be destroyed, precluding any possibility of repentance. Therefore the references to the "angels that sinned" cannot be references to Israelites.

Creation did not start with Israel, and both Jude and Peter clearly offer the rebellion of an earlier society as both a model and a cause of rebellion in their own.

The contention over the Body of Moses is reflected in the contention over the laws and promises of the Old Testament between the Canaanite-Edomite Jews (related to the "angels that sinned" and the true children of Israel (who were turning to Christ).