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Alcohol

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Re: Alcohol

Postby Kentucky » Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:30 pm

wmfinck wrote:The only way "grape juice" as we know it may have been readily consumed in the ancient world was to obtain it while it was fresh-squeezed.

"As we know it" today perhaps, however, because the ancients were unaware of pasteurization and refrigeration, they were not completely ignorant of preservation. I won't bore you with the many historical witnesses that attest to boiling, drying, encasing etc of the grape into jams, syrups, raison cakes etc so that they can be reconstituted at a later date in an unfermented state. But, here's an interesting link that provides such testimony (and perhaps you can debunk any of the claims from or attributed to Josephus, Columella, and Pliny, just to name a few): http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/boo ... ble/3.html

In New Testament times, that required having access to a vineyard. There was no canning as we know it, no bottling, and no refrigeration. So grape fermentation could not really be prevented, although there were probably low-alcohol wines.

Vineyards also sold their produce at marketplaces, in which locals could take advantage of making their own juice for intended long term use. Although the ancients did not have mason jars and sealed lids, they did have a system of clay pots and resins, which essentially did the same thing. Of course, there were variations to methodology depending on the culinary proclivities of various regions. It goes without saying that the longer the fermentation process lasted, the greater the alcoholic content. All the more reason to be glad, happy and joyous for the delectable grape juice freshly squeezed if that was their desire, which Ps.104:15 seems to allude to. But even the fermentation of "wine" was limited up to a point where it spoiled and turned to vinegar. Today, when I buy fruit or berries from the store, I soak it in vinegar for 20-30 minutes and then drain it; this prevents mold from developing early on. I've read that the ancient did the same thing... ironic lol.

It was not necessary to add yeast to grape juice purposely in order to make wine. Rather, the wild yeasts sufficient for fermentation are naturally found on the skin of the grapes. See this article on Fermentation

From the link I gave above:

Grape juice contains two leading ingredients, glucose or grape sugar and albumen, both of which contribute to the fermentation process. The albumen, which is found in the lining of the skin and in the envelope of the seed of the grape, contains microscopic organisms which are the fermenting agents, known as ferments or yeast.

The decaying of the albumen in the grape juice affords conditions favorable for the multiplication of yeast germs which mix with those already present in the air and release a chemical enzyme capable of breaking down the grape sugar into two forms. One is ethyl alcohol, a colorless liquid that readily mixes with water and remains in solution in the wine. The other is carbon dioxide gas, which appears in tiny bubbles which give the appearance of ebullition.36

The process of fermentation occurs only in the presence of certain conditions such as a moderate temperature, moisture and air in the grape juice. Now there are four major methods by which these conditions can be altered or eliminated and thus grape juice be preserved fresh and unfermented. We shall now consider each of these four methods, all of which were known to the ancients.

Because both the yeasts and the sugars are found naturally in and on the grapes, the fermentation process naturally began as soon as the grapes were crushed into jars, causing the yeasts and sugars to mix in the liquid. There is ancient literature describing that process, where wicker baskets of grapes were lowered into jars and crushed directly into them.

There are oh so many accounts of different methodologies in which unfermented beverages could be made from the grape. Is there any scientific validation that fermentation began within seconds of the grape being crushed? Wow, that's fast lol. No wonder they pursed other avenues to circumvent that process.

I have read the way Josephus, Columella, and Pliny are misquoted and taken out-of-context by teetotalers, and some of their allegations are downright dishonest.

It is not my desire to pit the antipodes of teetotalers and alcoholics against each other. Extremists perspectives is not my point, but rather a well thought out understanding of Bible truths. Whenever there seems to be an impasse, regardless of the subject, I like to pose two questions: 1. Should we be living as if we are living in the Kingdom of God right now? and 2. Will there be alcoholic drinks (beer, wine, whiskey etc) in the Kingdom of Heaven? Just something to ponder. I love using that one on Christian sports fans, asking them if there will be televised football in the Kingdom? My personal opinion is that Joe Six-Pack and armchair quarterbacks will be a thing of the past. :lol: Things will be as new as, well... new wine.

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Re: Alcohol

Postby wmfinck » Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:59 pm

Kentucky wrote:"As we know it" today perhaps, however, because the ancients were unaware of pasteurization and refrigeration, they were not completely ignorant of preservation. I won't bore you with the many historical witnesses that attest to boiling, drying, encasing etc of the grape into jams, syrups, raison cakes etc so that they can be reconstituted at a later date in an unfermented state. But, here's an interesting link that provides such testimony (and perhaps you can debunk any of the claims from or attributed to Josephus, Columella, and Pliny, just to name a few): http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/boo ... ble/3.html


I knew where you were going. Information originally based on the abuse by early teetotalers of certain passages, which is why, if you see my earlier post, I had already said this:

I have read the way Josephus, Columella, and Pliny are misquoted and taken out-of-context by teetotalers, and some of their allegations are downright dishonest.


In Wars Book 7, for instance, Josephus was talking about "fruits" as in olive oil, wine and grain. Where Whiston wrote "vegetables", the word refers to beans, which were preserved by drying and could last for many years. The reference to fruits was not as in fresh fruits like we can buy in a supermarket.

Likewise, Columella and Pliny were discussing the preservation of wine so that it would not turn to vinegar, NOT the preservation of "grape juice" so that it would not turn to wine. Of course, they also discussed the preservation of other foods, in wine or salt or by similar methods.

But the teetotalers had an agenda, and twisted their words.
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Re: Alcohol

Postby Kentucky » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:21 am

Kentucky wrote:"As we know it" today perhaps, however, because the ancients were unaware of pasteurization and refrigeration, they were not completely ignorant of preservation. I won't bore you with the many historical witnesses that attest to boiling, drying, encasing etc of the grape into jams, syrups, raison cakes etc so that they can be reconstituted at a later date in an unfermented state. But, here's an interesting link that provides such testimony (and perhaps you can debunk any of the claims from or attributed to Josephus, Columella, and Pliny, just to name a few): http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/boo ... ble/3.html


wmfinck wrote:I knew where you were going. Information originally based on the abuse by early teetotalers of certain passages, which is why, if you see my earlier post, I had already said this:

I have read the way Josephus, Columella, and Pliny are misquoted and taken out-of-context by teetotalers, and some of their allegations are downright dishonest.

I know, I was quoting and commenting on it. I don't see what's dishonest about it. This is what he quoted from Josephus: There is considerable information regarding the amazing ability of the ancients to preserve fruits and juices. An example is Josephus’ account of the Roman capture of the fortress of Masada. He tells us that the fruits and grains the Romans found in the fortress were still fresh, although they had been stored for many years: "Here was laid up corn in large quantities, and such as would subsist men for a long time; here was also wine and oil in abundance, with all kinds of pulse and dates heaped up together; all which Eleazar found there, when he and his Sicarii got possession of the fortress by treachery. These fruits were also fresh and full ripe, and not inferior to such fruits newly laid in, although they were little short of a hundred years from the laying in (of) these provisions (by Herod), till the place was taken by the Romans; nay, indeed, when the Romans got possession of those fruits that were left, they found them not corrupted all that while: nor should we be mistaken, if we supposed that the air was here the cause of their enduring so long" - Josephus, Jewish Wars 7, 8, 4, trans. William Whiston, Josephus Complete Works (Grand Rapids, 1974), p. 599. The article admittedly says the preservation of grains and fruits just shy of a hundred years in the pantry is obviously an exaggeration from Josephus himself.

In Wars Book 7, for instance, Josephus was talking about "fruits" as in olive oil, wine and grain. Where Whiston wrote "vegetables", the word refers to beans, which were preserved by drying and could last for many years. The reference to fruits was not as in fresh fruits like we can buy in a supermarket.

I have a personal hard copy of Josephus (Whiston version) and cannot find the word "vegetables" in said reference. I looked into three different online websites of "Complete Works" and likewise could not find the word "vegetables" using a search feature. I don't have the above 1974 edition, so the page numbering makes it difficult to find the reference. My quote above does not seem to be the same thing you're talking about. The point is extending the longevity of produce regardless of whether it is fruit or vegetable. I know that as a bean grower, in my garden, I don't pick beans fresh in the pod (if I want to save them), but wait just before the first frost when they're already dry (otherwise they will mold if picked too soon). Every fruit, spoken of generically and inclusive of all produce, have their own peculiar nuances in which to preserve them. Just about everything can be preserved, including grapes. Some last longer than others. I still have beans from 2 years ago that can be put in a soup. At some point a grape is fresh and in ancient times it was probably fresher than todays supermarkets in the cluster and by necessity was processed by any number of methods to dehydrate the fruit, use natural preservatives like salt and vinegar and then seal from air and exposure. It could very well be utilized within a one year cycle, to reconstitute with water the nutritious properties for one's drinking pleasure without any fermentation. The above passage says when the Romans found them "not corrupted," that is a term associated with the fruit not yet producing alcohol, unfermented; corrupted= fermented.

Likewise, Columella and Pliny were discussing the preservation of wine so that it would not turn to vinegar, NOT the preservation of "grape juice" so that it would not turn to wine. Of course, they also discussed the preservation of other foods, in wine or salt or by similar methods.

Pliny, a Roman scholar and naturalist, contemporary of Columella, briefly describes in his Natural History other methods used to preserve grapes: "Some grapes will last all through the winter if the clusters are hung by a string from the ceiling, and others will keep merely in their own natural vigor by being stood in earthenware jars with casks put over them, and packed round with fermenting grape-skins" - Pliny, Natural History 14, 3, 16, trans. H. Rackham, The Loeb Classical Library (Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1960). It appears Pliny is talking about clusters of grapes before it gets into a liquid state. Fermented wine will eventually turn into vinegar, but evidently there are methods to preserve grapes, like raisins, that can be used undefiled later on to make delicious grape juice.

Again from the article: "It is widely believed that in the ancient world it was much easier to preserve fermented wine than to preserve unfermented grape juice. Such a belief rests on the mistaken assumption that the preservation of fermented wine was a simple process requiring only that the pressed grape juice ferment naturally. The truth is quite different. Fermented wines are subject to a number of infections which cause them to become acid, malodorous and moldy. The ancients were well aware of these problems. Pliny, for example, frankly acknowledges that "it is a peculiarity of wine among liquids to go moldy or else to turn into vinegar; and whole volumes of instructions how to remedy this have been published" - Pliny, Natural History 14, 26.

But the teetotalers had an agenda, and twisted their words.

What was their agenda? By the same token, it might be said that the advocates for booze could likewise have an agenda. And that agenda is easily discerned as alcoholism. I'm not saying everybody that drinks is bad. But, logic says that if there is no alcohol, there is no alcoholism. That is what people have been debating for a long time i.e. whether the Bible sanctions it or not. Pivotal to the discussion is the tone set in Proverbs 23 and how it relates to all other Scriptures and our walk with Christ.

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Re: Alcohol

Postby EzraLB » Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:18 am

Kentucky wrote:But, logic says that if there is no alcohol, there is no alcoholism.


It's interesting that gun-grabbers use the same argument--without guns, there are no gun deaths. Prohibitionists argued that by making alcohol illegal and impossible to get, that it would cure many of our social ills. Eliminate all food, and we will have no gluttony. Remove the sin by removing the temptation. Remove the jews and live happily ever after.

If we as a people are so infantile that we cannot regulate our own intake of alcohol with moderation, surely we have no chance to ward off other, more insidious threats to our collective well-being.

"If there were no....fill in the blank" is a "if pigs could fly" type of speculation. Alcohol is impossible to eliminate, as it occurs naturally, and yes, rapidly in fresh-picked foods with high sugar content, like fruit. Fruits and vegetables that people buy in the supermarket are deceptive--they don't rot rapidly because they are treated with preservatives that increase shelf life. On the other hand, organic, fresh-picked ripe fruit will start decomposing--and fermenting--rapidly, within a few days if you don't eat it. Even the most primitive hominoids living in the jungles figured out how to inadvertently create their own hootch. What separates us from them is moderation and self-control.

If wine didn't exist, certainly other temptations would. And I'm glad for that, as overcoming temptation is a yardstick by which I can judge my progress in trying to conform my life to the will of Yahweh.
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Re: Alcohol

Postby wmfinck » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:46 am

Kentucky wrote:It appears Pliny is talking about clusters of grapes before it gets into a liquid state. Fermented wine will eventually turn into vinegar, but evidently there are methods to preserve grapes, like raisins, that can be used undefiled later on to make delicious grape juice.


You are proving my point for me. Do you really think the Greeks were using fermenting grape skins in order to preserve grapes, which were actually by then what we would call raisins, in order to make unfermented grape juice?

The teetotallers need a drink.

And my agenda is not the promotion of alcoholism, but rather it is the promotion of truth.

Christ was not talking about putting new grape juice into old skins. Only the fermenting process could burst them.
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Re: Alcohol

Postby wmfinck » Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:20 am

Josephus, Wars, Book 7 wrote:295 As for the stores laid up within this fortress, it was still more wonderful on account of its splendour and long continuance; 296 for here was laid up grain in large quantities, and such as would subsist men for a long time; here was also wine and oil in abundance, with all kinds of vegetables and dates heaped up together; 297 all which Eleazar found there when he and his Sicarii got possession of the fortress by treachery. These fruits were also fresh and fully ripe, and no way inferior to such fruits recently harvested, although they were little short of a hundred years {a} from the storage of these provisions [by Herod], till the place was taken by the Romans; nay, indeed, when the Romans got possession of those fruits that were left, they found them not rotted all that while; 298 nor should we be mistaken, if we supposed that the air was here the cause of their enduring so long, this fortress being so high, and so free from the mixture of all earth-born and muddy particles of matter.


The word for "fruits" refers to the wine and oil as well as the other foodstuffs.
The word for "vegetables" may better be understood to refer to dried beans or legumes.
The word for "fully ripe" may better be understood to mean "at prime strength" or "at peak flavor".

I do not think Josephus meant to describe fruits like we find in the supermarket produce section, and nothing in that passage leads me to believe the Romans found grapes they could squeeze into juice at Masada. Neither does any of this prove that somehow the Greeks or Romans were going out of there way to preserve unfermented "grape juice".

Oh, and the Greeks DID have a word for new wine which was not yet fermented (I just found this pencilled into the margin of my lexicon from 10 years ago): τρύξ

You can find the definition for it here: http://nlp.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph.jsp?l=tru/c&la=greek#lexicon

If the apostles were drinking unfermented grape juice, they should have properly called it τρύξ but strangely, the word τρύξ does not appear in Scripture (except for one place in Aquila's Greek translation of Jeremiah).
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Re: Alcohol

Postby Gaius » Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:03 pm

Just in little Ireland --

http://alcoholireland.ie/facts/health-and-alcohol/

Eighty-eight deaths every month directly from alcohol.
Chronic alcoholism among young people.
Alcohol a factor in up to one-third of death from unnatural causes.
Etc.

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Re: Alcohol

Postby EzraLB » Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:24 pm

It's not all gloom and doom for people who drink in moderation. In fact, there are certain proven health benefits from drinking in moderation. Unfortunately, not everyone who drinks can do it moderately, and those that can't shouldn't drink. It's not fair, I suppose, but that's reality.

http://www.lifeinsurancequotes.org/7-su ... g-alcohol/
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Re: Alcohol

Postby Teutonic » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:12 pm

EzraLB wrote:It's not all gloom and doom for people who drink in moderation. In fact, there are certain proven health benefits from drinking in moderation. Unfortunately, not everyone who drinks can do it moderately, and those that can't shouldn't drink. It's not fair, I suppose, but that's reality.

http://www.lifeinsurancequotes.org/7-su ... g-alcohol/


I think any possible benefit derived from moderate consumption of beer/wine has to do with the hops/grape content, and not with alcohol which is by nature toxic to the body. Just like how any possible benefit derived from moderate coffee intake has to do with the actual coffee bean and not from caffeine, which is also toxic to the body.

Many scientific studies obscure the facts by ignoring the negative catalysts and focusing on the positive.
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Re: Alcohol

Postby EzraLB » Sun Jan 03, 2016 3:24 pm

Teutonic wrote:I think any possible benefit derived from moderate consumption of beer/wine has to do with the hops/grape content, and not with alcohol which is by nature toxic to the body.


Many studies I've read show the benefits to be both the hops/grapes content and the alcohol. Fermented foods can have a very beneficial effect on the health of your gut flora--in moderation. In fact, traditionally most grains were fermented prior to baking--and that includes bread--to maximize their nutritional benefit.

On top of that, moderate consumption of alcohol is known to lower blood pressure, thus reducing risk of heart attacks and strokes. On the flip side, excessive alcohol consumption can contribute to heart attacks and strokes.

People who try to demonize all alcohol like to claim that any amount is toxic, but that's just not true. When not overwhelmed by alcohol, your body is perfectly capable of metabolizing it so as to render the alcohol not destructive to your overall health. However, even moderate use of Tylenol, on the other hand, is far more damaging to your liver than moderate consumption of alcohol.
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