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Gender in Resurrection?

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Gender in Resurrection?

Postby Joe » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:15 am

I think it is important because the marriage between Men and Women of our race is spiritual.

Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

Pastor Downey's Answer (hope he doesn't mind, as I think this is brilliant to get the ball rolling)

I think what Mt. 22:30 is referring to is the glorified bodies that Adam and Eve enjoyed before the Fall. Being that God gave Adam the ‘breath of life’ or Spirit of God, I don’t believe we can say that it is our Spirit, which is usually confused with soul (that is ours). Unisex would be a rather bizarre development don’t you think? The consensus in angelology seems to be that all named angels were male. However, that’s not to say that perhaps God has female agents as well, they’re just not mentioned other than some who interpret Zech. 5:9 as a possibility. The two terms “marry” and “given in marriage” are used in reference to Noah’s days, which I believe alludes to race mixing and homosexuality. Just guessing, but that would make Mt. 22:30 a prophetic promise of morality. The only clue we have as to how our resurrected bodies will perform is the glorified body of Christ before He ascended unto Heaven, which was extraordinary to say the least. Just a few thoughts, but there’s a lot we don’t know except from the Word, so it’s going to be beautiful and wonderful; not so much ‘renewed flesh’ as it will be Paradise renewed…. maybe.

I just want to add that although only male angels are known to us, perhaps the female angels are closer to Yahweh, never interacting with us. They are the better-halfs afterall. Angels are also different to the 'resurrected/spirits of righteous men', they are different beings.

Adam and Eve were immortal, and they were not genderless.

Characteristics of Yahshua after His Resurrection (He maintained His gender).
He looked like a normal human

He didn’t look like a toad or elephant or an angel. He looked human. So much so that on the road to Emmaus, the two disciples were mystified that he didn’t know the local news. His body shape and appearance were distinctly human.

He was the same gender as his pre-resurrection self

He wasn’t resurrected a woman, but a man. We rightly assume this to be the case for all of us. There is no marriage in the future kingdom but there is sexuality and gender. We retain that as it is part of God’s good creation.

He looked like his pre-resurrection self

When he appeared to the disciples in the locked upper room, nobody said, Who is this guy? They all knew who he was. They didn’t need to see the scars. It was the guy who hadn’t seen him that required that.

He was “touchable”

The famous disciple Thomas said, unless I touch his scars, I will not believe. Jesus appeared to him and he invited him to touch him. Mary clung to him on Easter morning. He says to them, see I am not a ghost. A ghost does not have flesh and bones as I have (Luke 24:39).


The rest are here: http://s t e v e d e w i t t .org/2011/04/14/resurrection-characteristics/

This leads me to believe that there will be males and females, but that marriage refers to immoral practices, as Pastor Downey explains.
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Re: Gender in Resurrection?

Postby SwordBrethren » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:42 am

Joe wrote:I

I just want to add that although only male angels are known to us, perhaps the female angels are closer to Yahweh, never interacting with us. They are the better-halfs afterall. Angels are also different to the 'resurrected/spirits of righteous men', they are different beings.





I think we need to get beyond this idea that women are the better half of men. If a female is the better half of a male than God, a male, and Christ, a male, are fundamentally flawed, lacking, less than, etc... If the female is the better half of the male than God erred when He made MAN in His image.

There is no basis in scripture to assume that female angels exist and are "closer to God" because we never see them. If we never see them the default assumption must be that they do not exist. We cannot simply assume "oh they must exist and because we never see them that means they are so special and better than male angels that they must be too close to God to interact with us, but they're there, close to God, the proof is that we never see them."

That is not logical.


Maybe they exist, but your extrapolation that they must exist and must be close to God because we never see them and they never interact with us, is pure speculation.
Revelation 18:
Und ich hörte eine andere Stimme vom Himmel, die sprach: Gehet aus von ihr, mein Volk, daß ihr nicht teilhaftig werdet ihrer Sünden, auf daß ihr nicht empfanget etwas von ihren Plagen!

Denn ihre Sünden reichen bis in den Himmel, und Gott denkt an ihren Frevel.


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Re: Gender in Resurrection?

Postby Joe » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:02 am

Yes indeed it is speculation and I should have put a winky smile after the 'better halves' comment. But it does carry a certain logic, from a different perspective.

There is a disputed account of female angels, as Pastor Downey notes. And if there are male angels than a logical extrapolation is that there are female angels ...otherwise they would be asexual beings. I think it is plausible to assume that there are female angels, if there are male ones. Female nature is hidden, is fleeting, is ...female, female angels, if they are female, would carry similar traits. This was the basis of my assertion that they never leave God's side, as a Woman would never leave the house in times past.

Another possibility is that the male identifiers are simply by custom, but perhaps they are perfect and whole themselves.

Your premise seems to be that they are male and that there are no female angels, to me this is a peculiar logic as male and female imply each-other, as opposites ...but I would not dismiss it. I just would need to understand, if not simply a label, why there are no female angels... I am not aware of any Scripture to resolve this but don't want to get too carried away ...too late I guess, this should be interesting.

Another passage I am thinking about (the focus of my contemplation should be evident within the passage), but have done no further investigation on. I have much to get through...

Proverbs 8 [on wisdom] 1 Doth not wisdom cry ? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. 4 Unto you, O men, I call ; and my voice is to the sons of man....
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth ; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled , before the hills was I brought forth : 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
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Re: Gender in Resurrection?

Postby Joe » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:22 pm

It was just suppose to be light-hearted, I didn't see the angels gender as the central topic. The proverbs passage is interesting as I think about the nature of the Holy Spirit. I do not want to turn God into a pagan male/female deity. My initial interest was the resurrection which I am still learning about.

:beer: I don't drink, but here's to a friendly beer.
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Re: Gender in Resurrection?

Postby SwordBrethren » Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:24 pm

Joe wrote:Yes indeed it is speculation and I should have put a winky smile after the 'better halves' comment. But it does carry a certain logic, from a different perspective.

There is a disputed account of female angels, as Pastor Downey notes. And if there are male angels than a logical extrapolation is that there are female angels ...otherwise they would be asexual beings. I think it is plausible to assume that there are female angels, if there are male ones. Female nature is hidden, is fleeting, is ...female, female angels, if they are female, would carry similar traits. This was the basis of my assertion that they never leave God's side, as a Woman would never leave the house in times past.

Another possibility is that the male identifiers are simply by custom, but perhaps they are perfect and whole themselves.

Your premise seems to be that they are male and that there are no female angels, to me this is a peculiar logic as male and female imply each-other, as opposites ...but I would not dismiss it. I just would need to understand, if not simply a label, why there are no female angels... I am not aware of any Scripture to resolve this but don't want to get too carried away ...too late I guess, this should be interesting.





My premise is that we simply go with what is in scripture and avoid making wild assumptions based on mortal/human customs and traditions.

It does not automatically follow that there are female angels because there are male angels, that is a logical fallacy, just like it wouldn't automatically follow that there are dogs on an island just because there are cats on the island, even though dogs and cats are often associated as being together in the same area.


Scripture plainly discusses male angels, angels with male traits, while it does not even hint at female angels. To assume the existence of female angels is just that, an assumption, and a baseless one based solely on speculation at that.
Revelation 18:
Und ich hörte eine andere Stimme vom Himmel, die sprach: Gehet aus von ihr, mein Volk, daß ihr nicht teilhaftig werdet ihrer Sünden, auf daß ihr nicht empfanget etwas von ihren Plagen!

Denn ihre Sünden reichen bis in den Himmel, und Gott denkt an ihren Frevel.


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Re: Gender in Resurrection?

Postby brucebohn » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:47 pm

Zec. 5-9 There came forth two women and the wind was in their wings..
I suppose that would tend to give some the idea or hint of female angels..
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Re: Gender in Resurrection?

Postby Joe » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:41 am

^Pastor Downey mentions the same passage in the quote in my initial post. It is hard to determine either way, I guess...

just like it wouldn't automatically follow that there are dogs on an island just because there are cats on the island, even though dogs and cats are often associated as being together in the same area.


Cats and dogs are not opposites, they do not imply each-other. A more apt analogy would be that if you have a southern pole, you would also have a northern pole. Or if you have a magnetic field, you have an electric current ...if you have light, you have darkness, unless it is being used as a metaphor so that we may understand an abstract concept ...such as Jesus saying He is the Light of the World. In this way 'male' may be used as a customary label to help us understand the characteristics of the angels, or just because our culture/race has a customary tendency towards male pro-nouns.

This is logical. This is why I would have to think of it as a custom if there are no females, because you never have males without females ...males are a part of a whole. Males without females is a logical flaw in my opinion. They cannot be male unless there are females, or unless by custom.

I don't think it contradicts Scripture, as Scripture seems to have little on the subject. Nor will I make a new doctrine based on female angels and use it to contradict worthwhile and well-understood Christian (DSCI) understandings. However I think part of our study, that we needn't be ashamed of, requires us to make logical interpretations. The Bible does not explicitly say that hades or the second death is 'non-existence', this is an apt logical deduction (literal interpretations would be problematic in many cases), nor does it say that Jacob was wrestling with an angel ...it is a logical deduction based on what we are given. Such logical deductions would be weaker than a deduction based on the law of opposites.
Paul using similar logic:
1 Corinthians 15:44
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
James 3:16
For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

Never (as it is not logical) "Where you have a dolphin, there you have seals" but more like "where you have dophin, there you (must) have sea (salt) water"
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Re: Gender in Resurrection?

Postby SwordBrethren » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:11 am

Joe wrote:
This is logical. This is why I would have to think of it as a custom if there are no females, because you never have males without females ...males are a part of a whole. Males without females is a logical flaw in my opinion. They cannot be male unless there are females, or unless by custom.




Prove it! You're not God! God doesn't have to follow YOUR understanding of life, or your understanding of customs.

If you believe that there MUST be female angels because there are male angels and females and males are part of the whole and males without females are illogical, then you are about half a step away from claiming that God the Father has a wife, "God the Mother" who is a female version of God and is His wife/mate.


It is all emotionalism based on a very feminine sort of outlook that because we on Earth have male and female, the angels in heaven serving God must have male and female. The Bible doesn't tell us anything of the sort.
Revelation 18:
Und ich hörte eine andere Stimme vom Himmel, die sprach: Gehet aus von ihr, mein Volk, daß ihr nicht teilhaftig werdet ihrer Sünden, auf daß ihr nicht empfanget etwas von ihren Plagen!

Denn ihre Sünden reichen bis in den Himmel, und Gott denkt an ihren Frevel.


Judentum ist Verbrechertum!

Heute ist Deutschland die größte Weltmacht! - Der Führer 30 Januar 1940
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Re: Gender in Resurrection?

Postby SwordBrethren » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:25 am

brucebohn wrote:Zec. 5-9 There came forth two women and the wind was in their wings..
I suppose that would tend to give some the idea or hint of female angels..




The idea of angels with wings is primarily a human custom/tradition.


Read Zechariah 5, the entire chapter... He continually rotates/switches between talking about women and talking about angels. If the women were the angels he wouldn't write-

5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth.

6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth.

7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.

8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.

9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.

10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?



It would be odd to switch between the two words, women and angels, if they were the same.
Revelation 18:
Und ich hörte eine andere Stimme vom Himmel, die sprach: Gehet aus von ihr, mein Volk, daß ihr nicht teilhaftig werdet ihrer Sünden, auf daß ihr nicht empfanget etwas von ihren Plagen!

Denn ihre Sünden reichen bis in den Himmel, und Gott denkt an ihren Frevel.


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Re: Gender in Resurrection?

Postby Staropramen » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:37 am

Is there any evidence of Caucasian female skeletons from before the time period of Adam and Eve? I've heard Bill say that the fallen angels may have been White. That could explain the existence of Caucasian remains from before Adam's time but do female remains exist as well? Something I've been curious about myself.
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