Are the Dead Alive Now? (NO, if you are a Sadducee!)

[aleajactaest]

Define "death" please!!!!

[Mountainman]

I still think you all are wrong:

Psalms 6:5 “For in death there is no remembrance of thee”

Psalms 146:4 “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.”

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10: “for the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”

“ Also, their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.”

“Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”



Looking back on this thread, most of the verses I see you reference are proceeded or followed by a teaching of life AFTER a resurrection. Seriously.

Also, listening to William Fink (who I respect and look forward to listening to as much as possible) – he most always references non-biblical sources to support life after death.

The teaching of life after death is from the God of this World (Satan) who the House of Israel went whoring after.

Also known as “hooky-pookism.”

"Ye shall not surly die!" Satan said.

God’s Word teaches that death is an enemy. It teaches in life AFTER a resurrection. It teaches that J.C. is the first fruits from among the dead and we shall be like him - after the resurrection!

God Bless!

[SaxonJackson]

Too late for me to get too deep into the fray. I didn't have time to read all of the posts in this thread but I read some and skimmed over most. I believe that life after death is a basic tenet of the Bible. Earth is a sort of testing ground and our choices and actions here will determine our soul's future.

Luke 23:42-43,
"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

John 6:39-40,
"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44,
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:47,
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

John 6:54,
"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:58,
"This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever."

1 Thessalonians 4:16,
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

[matthewott]

Mountainman, you speak of the quotes being used out of context because they are not used in conjuction with preceeding or proceeding verses. Here is an example of you doing the same:

Psalm 6:4-5 "Return, O Yahweh, deliver my soul: Save me for your lovingkindness sake. For in death there is no remembrance of YOU: In Sheol who shall give you thanks?"

It is quite obvious to me that this is speaking of the second and final death. The author is pleading to Yahweh to deliver his soul, to save him. It says nothing about his body, as he must be discussing his existence AFTER his bodily death. He is obviously worried about the death of his SOUL. What better description of the DEATH OF YOUR SOUL (2ND DEATH) than to have no remembrance of Yahweh. It is impossible to exist devoid of Yahweh, and those who are destined for that "empty existence" (there's a good oxymoron for you) surely are not thanking Yahweh.

Psalm 146:3-4 "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

Here it is obvious that this desription of death is for "princes, sons of men", not the sons of Yahweh, the Israelites! It's a no brainer that we are not to follow the non-Israelites as they do not have Yahweh's Breath of Life, the great treasure we are born to care for. When these people die, that's it for them, but not for us.

The entire Ecclesiastes 9 is a constant comparison of dichotomies. Verses 1 and 2 start the mood for this chapter.

"For all this I laid to my heart, even to explore all this: that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of Elohim; whether it is love or hatred, man knows it not; all is before them. All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean and to the unclean; to him that sacrifices and to him that sacrifices not; as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that swears, as he that fears an oath."

It seems to me that this entire chapter is the comparison of the wheat and the tares. As in verse 5, 'the living' seem to be the wheat, and 'the dead' are the tares. Mountainman, you need to understand that one of the fundamentals to understanding the bible is the fact that WE are SEPARATE from the rest of the races BECAUSE we are the chosen vessels for Yahweh's Breath of Life. What defines DEATH for us is different for everyone else. So far, you seem to be quoting scripture relevant to DEATH FOR THE SONS OF MEN, NOT THE SONS OF YAHWEH.

[matthewott]

The teaching of life after death is from the God of this World (Satan) who the House of Israel went whoring after.

Also known as “hooky-pookism.”

"Ye shall not surly die!" Satan said.

How is "Life after Death" a Satanic teaching if Satan says we "shall not surely die"? What lie Satan is obviously spewing is that there is no death, therefore no evil, therefore Satan's NONEXISTENCE. The greatest lie Satan ever perpetrated on humanity is that HE DOES NOT EXIST! Physical death is an obvious part of this physical life, and only ONE Adamite ever escaped the physical death...Enoch! How can "Eternal Life" be thrown around the bible so willy-nilly if the spirit within us ceases to exist when this vessel containing it, being designed to only last approx. 120 years, is no longer fit to hold it? I think you need to look up "everlasting" in the dictionary. I certainly was never taught that "everlasting" meant "intermittent", as would be the proper term to convey your doctrine on our spiritual existence.

[aleajactaest]

to Mountainman ... and perhaps to someone else in this thread.

This is just one of a few pre-preliminary exchange of views about the Are the Dead Alive Now? (NO, if you are a Sadducee!) which, later, I will entitle it Do you have an immortal soul ... which is properly "AD HOC" for the type of subject we are arguing about.

post by Mountainman, THU Dec 03, 2009, 11:18 pm

From footnote #24 page 257 from Jesus Christ Our Passover by Victor Paul Wierwille:

Matthew 27:52 and 53 are clearly added by scribes. Manuscript 354 in Venice, Italy, omits these verses. Though other textual documentation for this has not yet been found, it must be realized that the earliest manuscript including this section of Matthew 27 dates from the fourth century A.D. These verses must be an addition since they are contradictory to other scriptures which teach us that the dead are dead and will remain so until Christ returns. Until that time, only Christ has been raised bodily from death unto everlasting life. Textual critics as well as marginal notes in other old manuscripts have recognized these verses as later interpolations. The phrase “after his resurrection” in Matthew 27:53 demonstrates the passage is totally out of context, obviously a scribal addition.

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Matthew 27:52 and 53 are clearly added by scribes.

Clearly, there is no real concrete proof. But it might seem to me that some bright sinister individual might have seen the unexpected opportunity of inserting (perhaps) some of his "who knows what" doctrinal pre-established convictions, and, in so doing (willingly or not), arising doubt & creating confusion in the minds of the unsuspecting reader. ..... And, then again, it might not seem to me. It depends on the way one looks at these verses and on one's level of brain pollution ..... yes, yes, we all still have some pollution in our brain, thanks to the ongoing 7500 years of Kenite, Canaanite, Edomite, Shittite satanic propaganda.

Manuscript 354 in Venice, Italy, omits these verses.

If verses 52, 53 did not exist or they were/are removed from Matthew 27, there is absolutely no loss of information, meaning and sense of the narration of Matthew 27. It flows so smoothly that no one would miss them.

These verses must be an addition since they are contradictory to other scriptures which teach us that the dead are dead and will remain so until Christ returns.

YES and NO. It depends on other possible, or probable, plausible conjectural speculative biblical hypothesis.
However, I agree with "... the dead are dead and will remain so until Christ returns". ... but all dead Israelites/Adamites are not dead forever as yet.

Textual critics as well as marginal notes in other old manuscripts have recognized these verses as later interpolations.

Wierville has not being specific. Where are the citations?

The phrase “after his resurrection” in Matthew 27:53 demonstrates the passage is totally out of context, obviously a scribal addition.

Wierville does not show how Matthew 27 : 52,53 are out of context or, at least, that there is something fishy about them.

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Post by wmfinck » Wed Nov 18, 2009; 10:36 pm

"... the criteria for my including a passage in the text of my translation is whether or not the passage is consistently attested to in the oldest manuscripts. ... but the Bible proves itself whether they exist or not. The passage at Matthew 27:52-53 is certainly attested to consistently by all of the oldest manuscripts. ..."


Re: Matthew 27:52-53
Post by wmfinck » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:13 am

I just couldn't pass on this one. ... "Manuscript 354 in Venice Italy" is an 11th Century minuscule, ... Since Matthew 27:52 and 53 exist in hundreds of older manuscripts, and in all of the early Great Uncials of the 4th, 5th, and later centuries, it is evident to me that Wierville's logic is absolutely biased and perverted. ... All 354 proves is that some medieval scribe goofed up and missed a couple of lines while copying, something that actually happened quite frequently, or perhaps was himself a skeptic and left them out purposefully. If you want to prove that verses were added to Scripture (i.e. Mark 16:9-20), you have to point out evidence from manuscripts equal to or older in antiquity than those which contain the verses in question.

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"... the criteria ... consistently attested to in the oldest manuscripts. ... an 11th Century minuscule ... Matthew 27:52 and 53 exist in hundreds of older manuscripts ...

Ultimately, this criteria is not definitive. Unless we find a way to go back in time to verify and truthfully record all the events of the Crucifixion of Yahshua, we will never be 100% sure. Therefore, the age of the manuscripts does not prove/guarantee the veracity of the text.
Question --- Is this part of the faith of the saints?

... but the Bible proves itself whether they exist or not. ...

Not really and not always. The set of doctrinal syllogisms is an extremely high speculative "self consistent" system of biblical epistemology, and it's a subset of the infinite Bible subset. This is somewhat analogue to the "Quantum Physics, General Relativity and modern Astrophysics" theoretical subsets, which are all 3 "self consistent", and where one can never question the most important fundamental crucial hypothesis on which they are constructed.

Nevertheless, I love biblical epistemology and I accept it as is.

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post by Mountainman » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:57 pm
Re: Matthew 27:52 and 53

Wmf>>>If you want to prove that verses were added to Scripture (i.e. Mark 16:9-20), you have to point out evidence from manuscripts equal to or older in antiquity than those which contain the verses in question.

We also have God’s Word itself to compare it to. These verses do not follow the same time line or narrative and nowhere else is there testimony of people seeing:

“graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53. And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

This does not sound like the many clear verses that teach that death is an enemy and only Jesus Christ – and only J.C. - was resurrected from the dead. These verses sound more like a script from Hollywood’s “Night of the living Dead” movie. They just don’t fit in and Wierwille is pointing out that he is not the only one who believed this.

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... We also have God’s Word itself to compare it to. ...

Same answer as given to W. Finck in[/size] "... but the Bible proves itself whether they exist or not. ..." immediately above.

... These verses do not follow the same time line or narrative and nowhere else is there testimony of people seeing: ... These verses sound more like a script from Hollywood’s “Night of the living Dead” movie. ...

Question --- In which way they do not follow? You are almost there ..... but no specifics.


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post by Mountainman » Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:17 pm

... I believe Wierwille logically explains the misunderstanding of some scriptures which imply that the dead are alive NOW rather than after the resurrection. ...

... Regarding Matthew 27: 52-53 ... Let’s say 100 bodies of the saints were resurrected. Then I would agree that 101 people were resurrected – that’s all!

How do I know? Because undertakers are still in business!

But I believe Wierwille hits the nail on the head in his reason to conclude it was added by scribes. He had a simple rule that I believe in. “The few difficult verses should not negate the many clear verses" and EVERYTHING about these verses do not fit in with the many clear.

But heck I’ll agree with you on this verse – because it does NOT prove your point that the Dead are Alive now for everybody else! It proves ONLY 101 people are raised from the dead!! ...

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... I believe Wierwille logically explains the misunderstanding of some scriptures which imply that the dead are alive NOW rather than after the resurrection. ...

Not quite. I find Wierville still wanting, even if I agree with him in many of his assertions.

... Regarding Matthew 27: 52-53 ... Let’s say 100 bodies of the saints were resurrected. Then I would agree that 101 people were resurrected – that’s all! ...

I agree ....... but how and when.

How do I know? Because undertakers are still in business!

What are you talking about?

... But I believe Wierwille hits the nail on the head in his reason to conclude it was added by scribes. ...

NO. I don't believe he did.

... “The few difficult verses should not negate the many clear verses" and EVERYTHING about these verses do not fit in with the many clear. ...

Why not? In mathematics and theoretical physics, you can have constructed the most truthful and applicable function of variables for a specific concept, but if, from "-infinity" to "+infinity" in the domain of the independent variables, there is a point for which such function does not exist, then such function is invalid and must be rejected.

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It seems to me that there are 2 kinds of of Christian Israelites in this brotherly forum:

1) --- Those who believe that the following equality holds true:

==> death = no active life, no consciousness, no existence.

and that the two "one way-left-to-right" sequences of events hold true:

=====> a) --- birth, mortal life, death, return of Yahshua, resurrection to immortal life.
=====> b) --- birth, mortal life, return of Yahshua, change from mortal to immortal life in a
- - - - - - - - - - "twinkle of an eye" ( just for Israelites living in the very last day of jewishdom )

and that verses 52, 53 are spurious and should be removed from Matthew 27, obtaining:

Matthew 27: ...
45 Then from the sixth hour there came darkness upon all the land until the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Yahshua cried out with a great voice, saying: “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani”, which is “My God, My God, for what reason have You abandoned Me?”
47 But some of those who stood there hearing it said that “He calls Elijah!”
48 And immediately one from among them running and taking both a sponge full of vinegar and placing it upon a reed, gave Him to drink.
49 But the rest said “Leave Him that we would see whether Elijah comes saving Him!” But another taking a lance pierced His side, and there came out water and blood.
50 Then Yahshua again crying out with a great voice gave up the Spirit.

( vss 45 through 51 describe the things the centurion saw )

51 And behold, the curtain of the temple had torn in two from the top unto the bottom, and the earth had been shaken and the rocks split.
54 Then the centurion and those with him guarding Yahshua, seeing the earthquake and the things which happened feared exceedingly, saying “Truly He was a Son of God!”

( the continuity of verses 51 and 54 is so smooth that no one would miss verses 52 and 53 ..... therefore, without them, the entire excerpt of Matthew 27, from vs 45 to vs 54, makes complete sense )



2) --- Those who believe that the following equality holds true:

==> death = unknown kind of life, unknown kind of consciousness,
- - - - - - - - - - - unknown kind of existence.

and that the two "one way-left-to-right" sequences of events hold true:

=====> a) --- possible unknown kind of preexistence???, birth, "mortal"(?) life, death,
- - - - - - - - - - return of Yahshua, resurrection to immortal life.
=====> b) --- possible unknown kind of preexistence???, birth, "mortal"(?) life, return of Yahshua,
- - - - - - - - - - change from mortal to immortal life in a
- - - - - - - - - - "twinkle of an eye" ( just for Israelites living in the very last day of jewishdom )

and that Matthew 27 : 52, 53 is certainly attested to consistently by all of the oldest manuscripts and, therefore, should remain where it is.

But this is a problem, because it can lead to various interpretations or misinterpretations, and in turn leading to possible fantastic conjectures fitting one's preconceived biblical ideas.

For example, reading candidly Matthew 27 : 45 ==> 54, one could be wondering:

What those resurrected saints were doing between Wednesday at about 3-pm---to---3:30-pm and Saturday at about 6:00-pm, waiting for Yahshua resurrection?????

In fact, verses 45 through 51 and/or 52 show almost a perfect temporal continuity of events.
But there is an apparent temporal discontinuity between verses 52 and 53, a gap of almost 75 hours, which also makes verse 52 at odd with Matthew 27 : 45 ==> 54.
Did the original writer, and/or the later copiers and/or the translators, excited by this "holy task", involuntarily partially screwed up the wording of verses 52 and 53?????

Perhaps, verses 52 and 53 should be moved elsewhere in Matthew 27 or Matthew 28 all together.
Where exactly? Frankly, I can't find a proper place ....... any idea?

Or perhaps, there is a need to perform a "scriptural surgical operation" to substantially reduce the doctrinal confusion caused by these two verses. I have an idea. Rather than explain it with many words, I rewrite the entire excerpt highlighting the restructured verses 52 and 53 and where they should be.

Matthew 27: ...
45 Then from the sixth hour there came darkness upon all the land until the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Yahshua cried out with a great voice, saying: “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani”, which is “My God, My God, for what reason have You abandoned Me?”
47 But some of those who stood there hearing it said that “He calls Elijah!”
48 And immediately one from among them running and taking both a sponge full of vinegar and placing it upon a reed, gave Him to drink.
49 But the rest said “Leave Him that we would see whether Elijah comes saving Him!” But another taking a lance pierced His side, and there came out water and blood.
50 Then Yahshua again crying out with a great voice gave up the Spirit.
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple had torn in two from the top unto the bottom, and the earth had been shaken and the rocks split and the tombs had opened.
52 And, after His rising, many bodies of the saints who were sleeping had been raised,
53 and coming out from the tombs they entered into the holy city and had appeared to many.
54 Then the centurion and those with him guarding Yahshua, seeing the earthquake and the things which happened feared exceedingly, saying “Truly He was a Son of God!”

These dead saints were O.T. believers, who --- according to the usual punctuation in the CNT, KJV, and other translations --- were quickened into resurrection-to-life at the moment of their Yahshua's death, but lay in their graves till HIS resurrection, when they came forth.
But it is far more natural, as valid concrete common sense dictates, to understand that only the graves were opened, probably by the earthquake, at our Yahshua's death, and this only in preparation for the subsequent exit of those dead in them, when the "Spirit of Life" should enter into them from their risen Yahshua. ( I Thessalonians 4 : 14 )

Unfortunately, even with this rearranging of words, the problem of "mortal" or "immortal" soul still remain with us. And, curiously and of necessity, a similar question to that asked just above --- in this section of the 2nd kind of Christian Israelites --- must be asked at this juncture, i.e.:

Where those resurrected saints had and/or have being between Saturday, April 28, 31 A.D., at about 6:00-pm, until the present?????

That's a long time which begs the question:

Specifically and in detail, what were they doing all this time?????

It could reveal to be very uncomfortable to know the answer.

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Ending thought.

As I try to answer some biblical questions, new ones pop up mercilessly; and the name of game is:

Chi più sa, meno sa.
kee peeòò sah, méhnoh sah.

translating:
the more one knows, the less one knows.

More to come.

Fausto

[matthewott]

Fausto,

While I enjoy your indepth insight, I think you are falling just short in defining the belief differences of CI group members (1) [the mountainmen] and (2) [Bill supporters]. You are more accurate with group (1) than you are (2).

GROUP 2

death = unknown kind of life, unknown kind of consciousness,
- - - - - - - - - - - unknown kind of existence.

and that the two "one way-left-to-right" sequences of events hold true:

=====> a) --- possible unknown kind of preexistence???, birth, "mortal"(?) life, death,
- - - - - - - - - - return of Yahshua, resurrection to immortal life.
=====> b) --- possible unknown kind of preexistence???, birth, "mortal"(?) life, return of Yahshua,
- - - - - - - - - - change from mortal to immortal life in a
- - - - - - - - - - "twinkle of an eye" ( just for Israelites living in the very last day of jewishdom

I don't see where we come across as not knowing what "kind" of existence, conciousness, or life...as we have quoted from scripture time and again, it is a SPIRITUAL existence that we Israelites are to be concerned with. Our SPIRITS are the BREATH OF LIFE given to us by Yahweh, part of his own essence, validation that we are Sons of Yahweh. Scripture tells us that Yahweh knew us before we were even born (of the flesh). We started in spirit and will CONTINUE in spirit. These physical bodies are simply a vessel to hold our spirit, again validated by scripture, and these vessels are not meant to last. We are not to associate our complete existence with these fragile vessels, bound by the physical laws of death of this current earthly plane. This is a more accurate depiction of the "series of events":

- infin. --->our spirits were always a part of Yahweh---->placed within earthly vessels called Adamic race---->introduction of sin corrupts flesh----> our spirits are to exist WITHIN the flesh, now subject to suffering and death, for only a limited time---->unavoidable physical death sends our spirits to a resting place (hell, sheol, the grave)---->Yahshua returns to awaken the spirits of the saints and place them back into our resurrected bodies, now unblemished with sin, to live and rule with him on this earthly plane---->infin.+

Our existence as Israelites should be viewed more as a dual timeline, so to speak:

spirit: -infin.----existence----------------------------------------------------------------------------------->infin.+

flesh: -infin.---------------------------> birth->death->resurrection---------------------->?-------------->infin.+

I honestly don't see where there is such confusion about this subject. While we may disagree on the details (like where exactly is our resting place, and do we have "consciousness"), it should be painfully obvious that who we are exists within the SPIRIT, and that spirit cannot be destroyed by any save Yahweh. Scripture dictates we are to live a SPIRITUAL life, to live in the SPIRIT, not the FLESH. Until Shiloh comes, the flesh will continue to die, but our spirits CONTINUE TO EXIST. Scripture validates that Yahweh has always existed, and always will exist, in various forms. As children of Yahweh with his spirit, we do also (just not as many).

[aleajactaest]

Re: Are the Dead Alive Now? (NO, if you are a Sadducee!)

MATTHEWOTT, thank you very much for replying; I enjoyed your insight very much; now I have a better understanding of the 2-SL-CII view of these type of metaphysical points of view.

Postby matthewott » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:20 pm

Fausto,

While I enjoy your indepth insight, I think you are falling just short in defining the belief differences of CI group members (1) [the mountainmen] and (2) [Bill supporters]. You are more accurate with group (1) than you are (2).

That is true !!! Congratulation !!! And do you know why ??? Because since I discover 2-SL-CII --- about 10 years ago --- there was no instance in which all greatest 2-SL-CII preachers ever approached thoroughly in a metaphysical and/or epistemological method --- and still don't and/or can't --- the subjects of, death, life, spirit, soul and Yahweh business. Therefore, I had to imagine what it seemed to me the most probable definition of death and sequence of life events of Group 1 & 2; and remember, I said

it seems to me.

not

I know it is so.

I am totally grateful to the 2-SL-CII set of preachers/teachers, particularly to Clifton Emahiser and William Finck, for rendering the Bible the only book that makes total sense. If the Bible is a universalist book, as ~99+% of churchianity believes, then it does not make any copulating sense, and it will not survive, and we have no hope. Whoever preaches universalism from the Bible is an evil jewish or crypto-jewish "vultus culi"; even if he is an Israelite. Even from the evolutionary point of view, universalism is also contrary to the laws of nature, which is created by Yahweh ....... and, doing nothing is not an option for us Israelites, if we care for our remaining huge multitude of unconsciously deceived brethern.

_ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _ + _

I don't see where we come across as not knowing what "kind" of existence, conciousness, or life...as we have quoted from scripture time and again, it is a SPIRITUAL existence that we Israelites are to be concerned with. Our SPIRITS are the BREATH OF LIFE given to us by Yahweh, part of his own essence, validation that we are Sons of Yahweh. Scripture tells us that Yahweh knew us before we were even born (of the flesh). We started in spirit and will CONTINUE in spirit. These physical bodies are simply a vessel to hold our spirit, again validated by scripture, and these vessels are not meant to last. We are not to associate our complete existence with these fragile vessels, bound by the physical laws of death of this current earthly plane.

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... "kind" of existence, consciousness, or life...as we have quoted from scripture ...

Please, can you give me a or the list of irrefutable scriptures evidencing and defining them?

... it is a SPIRITUAL existence that we Israelites are to be concerned with ...

... "a" SPIRITUAL existence ... ? Why not "the" SPIRITUAL existence?

Which SPIRITUAL existence are you talking about?
--- a) --- The one that we should strive to live in our physical life
or
--- b) --- the one we will hopefully live with Yahshua in the future + perhaps that we had already in our
- - - - - "possibly presumed" preexistence?

It is my guts feeling that, with the present 2000 year old secular and non-secular christian understanding, I agree with you that we should be concerned with "SPIRITUAL existence", even if "SPIRITUAL existence" has never been properly and definitely defined due to our "sheeply" total lack of proper Godly knowledge.

I say that I agree with you because there is a "tacit inner understanding", between and among Christian Israelites of various most decent christian groups, of what "SPIRITUALITY" might mean. But, concretely and definitely, I am still waiting for a proper and definite answer, i.e., a miracle. Since about 1800 AD, we, Children of Israel, did not progress very much in grasping Yahweh's business, after all. Previously, of course, we had to go through the famous 2520 years of oblivion.

Our SPIRITS are the BREATH OF LIFE given to us by Yahweh, part of his own essence, validation that we are Sons of Yahweh.

" ... Our SPIRITS are the BREATH OF LIFE ... " ??? - I disagree. To be discussed later.

" ... Our SPIRITS ... given to us by Yahweh ... " - I totally agree .

" ... Our SPIRITS ... part of ""his""(HIS) own essence ... "??? - I disagree in part: lack of knowledge.

" ... validation that we are Sons of Yahweh ... " - I totally agree.

Scripture tells us that Yahweh knew us before we were even born (of the flesh)

You mean: Yahweh had in mind the complete plan of Adamic creation until the final return of
Yahshua ........... nothing necessarily more ........... I hope so.

We started in spirit and will CONTINUE in spirit

When we started in spirit?

(BTW - I like much better "spirit" for Adamic/Israelite man ......... rather than "SPIRIT")

These physical bodies are simply a vessel to hold our spirit, again validated by scripture, and these vessels are not meant to last

I could not agree more. BRAVO. However, these physical bodies are the crown of Yahweh's creativity.

bound by the physical laws of death of this current earthly plane

WOW!!! - This is heavy. I rather not to reply, or else we are going to be swallowed in a magma of highly speculative conjectural propensities - or - highly conjectural speculative propensities, whichever best.

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This is a more accurate depiction of the "series of events":

- infin. --->our spirits were always a part of Yahweh---->placed within earthly vessels called Adamic race---->introduction of sin corrupts flesh----> our spirits are to exist WITHIN the flesh, now subject to suffering and death, for only a limited time---->unavoidable physical death sends our spirits to a resting place (hell, sheol, the grave)---->Yahshua returns to awaken the spirits of the saints and place them back into our resurrected bodies, now unblemished with sin, to live and rule with him on this earthly plane---->infin.+

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- infin. --->our spirits were always a part of Yahweh---->

Total lack of knowledge. I partly agree with you depending on the nature and/or definition of "spirits".

---->placed within earthly vessels called Adamic race---->

I totally agree with you.

---->introduction of sin corrupts flesh---->

I totally agree with you. The consequent question is: < why is so? > and/or < if Adam and Eve did not sin, what then? Their, and probably our, flesh would remain uncorrupted? What does it mean? > Heavy.

----> our spirits are to exist WITHIN the flesh,

But, just above, you have stated that "" --->our spirits were always a part of Yahweh---->"" ....... therefore already existing. I prefer to state: ""----> our spirits are to be placed and to remain WITHIN the flesh"" ....... for a specific reason, of course. To be discussed later.

now subject to suffering and death,

The flesh or the spirit?

for only a limited time---->

I totally agree.

---->unavoidable physical death sends our spirits to a resting place (hell, sheol, the grave)---->

In hell, the sheol, the grave??? I totally disagree.
If our spirits are sent in somewhere else in Yahweh's realm, I totally agree.

---->Yahshua returns to awaken the spirits of the saints

""to awaken""??? I disagree. Instead, it should be ""with"".

and place them back into our resurrected bodies, now unblemished with sin, to live and rule with him on this earthly plane---->

I agree, except for ""resurrected bodies"", which is to be discussed later when we have more knowledge. I mean: we are going to be resurrected, all right, but some details are to be specified.

---->infin.+

I agree, I want so and I love it, but ....... some other time, when we will feel to indulge in metaphysics.

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Our existence as Israelites should be viewed more as a dual timeline, so to speak:

spirit: -infin.----existence----------------------------------------------------------------------------------->infin.+

flesh: -infin.---------------------------> birth->death->resurrection---------------------->?-------------->infin.+

Again, I can agree with this graph depending of the nature and/or definition of "spirit" ...... and "SPIRIT".

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I honestly don't see where there is such confusion about this subject. While we may disagree on the details (like where exactly is our resting place, and do we have "consciousness"), it should be painfully obvious that who we are exists within the SPIRIT, and that spirit cannot be destroyed by any save Yahweh. Scripture dictates we are to live a SPIRITUAL life, to live in the SPIRIT, not the FLESH. Until Shiloh comes, the flesh will continue to die, but our spirits CONTINUE TO EXIST. Scripture validates that Yahweh has always existed, and always will exist, in various forms. As children of Yahweh with his spirit, we do also (just not as many).

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I honestly don't see where there is such confusion about this subject.

Really??? for as long as we are Adamites and/or Israelites, confusion shall reign, disagreements shall increase, and accidents will happen.

While we may disagree on the details (like where exactly is our resting place, and do we have "consciousness"),

I have missed to reply about ""consciousness"": I don't believe we are conscious once dead. However, our very much destructible "spirits" exist ....... in somewhere else in Yahweh's realm. And .......

... and that spirit cannot be destroyed by any save Yahweh. ...

I totally agree.

... it should be painfully obvious that who we are exists within the SPIRIT, ...

What do you mean by that???

... Scripture dictates we are to live a SPIRITUAL life, to live in the SPIRIT, not the FLESH. ...

I understand you and I reach your mind and I agree. This has been repeated millions of times over the past 2000 years, but no one ever came out with a specific reason, factual and concrete specific details explaining the "know how", and what relation has our life with Yahweh's. To be discussed later.

Until Shiloh comes, the flesh will continue to die, but our spirits CONTINUE TO EXIST.

I agree, the flesh will continue to die. Do you know why? (don't answer me: it's the will of Yahweh).
I agree if, when we are dead, our spirits are unconscious. Do you know why?

Scripture validates that Yahweh has always existed, and always will exist, in various forms. As children of Yahweh with his spirit, we do also (just not as many).

This is extremely heavy. To be discussed later, taking as much sweet time as possible.

[matthewott]

Fausto, I am so enjoying this discussion. You are helping me delve into scripture even deeper to answer the more detailed questions. Much of your last post I agree with and made me realize certain points I'm trying to make need to be "reworded" to bring a more accurate account of my "theories" (though this does not mean I'm trying to create my own doctrine). It is obvious that we have collectively substantiated the fact that the dead ARE alive, so it is the factual details therein that we are pursuing. I just wanted to point out too that my CAPITALIZATION of certain words is ONLY for EMPHASIS, and not meant to supercede the importance of Yahweh and His works. I will reply more in depth after I do more scriptural research too. I look forward to the next post.

[matthewott]

I forgot a couple other quick points: I have yet to assume that your answers come from a "you know it all" standpoint, and I hope I'm not coming across to you as such. I am here to learn the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth, and it is quite obvious you are too. Until all these intricate details can be completely verified through scripture, most of this heavy discussion is borderline conjecture, but it gives me great pleasure to be here with my likeminded and Truth hungry brethren to help push each other in the right direction. With that being said, isn't it a bit curious that the one who started this thread is no longer offering anything new? Close minded people have nothing to discuss after a while.....