Are the Dead Alive Now? (NO, if you are a Sadducee!)

[Mountainman]

WmF>>>1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Question: When *was* the gospel preached to them that are dead?

Question: Is there a continuing ministry to preach to the dead NOW?

WmF>>>Luke 12:4-5 4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Answer: “Them that kill the body” are murders, and politicians.

Those “which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell.[ Gehenna]” are those who can destroy your eternal-life spirit AFTER the resurrection.

BTW the resurrection FROM the dead is spoken of several times in this epistle.

And “Gehenna” is the dump outside of the city – hell fire- a place here on earth.

Merry Christmas!

[wmfinck]

Mountainman, now you are really twisting scripture. I almost have a mind to go into the SQL DB and run a query changing your name to Pretzelman!!!

[Mountainman]

Greetings friends on W. Fink’s forum!

I was honored to hear me referenced on last night’s show!

Regarding John 5:25 “the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

W. Fink referenced 1 Peter… preaching to the imprisoned spirits – as fulfillment of this prophecy. First, read on and you will see as to *when* this will happen.

Vs 28 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, 29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the *resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation”

The fulfillment of John 5:25 is *after the *resurrection *from the *dead. This verse is NOT fulfilled in the preaching to the “imprisoned spirits.” How could it be? Because John 5:25 says the dead… “they that hear shall *live.”

The imprisoned spirits are NOT going to be so lucky as to live.

The dead are not alive now. That is pagan-god teaching. The dead shall be made alive *after the *resurrection and J.C. is the first fruits from among the dead. We shall be like he is.

An accurate teaching of God’s Word on this topic does not lead to un-natural and harmful behavior. It teaches us that death is real and it is bad! Our behavior is in-sink with normal survival instincts to preserve life. And it should, God created us.

In contrast, teaching that the dead are alive now, leads to a life-hating, death-loving, cult. This cult undermines man’s normal life-preserving instincts. This cult teaches that life is “suppose to suck” and relief is on the way “I can’t wait to die – then it will get better.”

I have seen this “Christian” attitude everywhere.

You have NOT seen people like me engaging in an orgy of pleasures. How do I know? Because I am a small minority in thinking! Those party animals you referred to all think like YOU.

You are not teaching a resurrection from the dead. Instead you are teaching a resurrection of a physical body to re-unite with an eternally alive spirit. New-Age stuff.


Ya Bless.

[JamesTheJust]

In contrast, teaching that the dead are alive now, leads to a life-hating, death-loving, cult.

That is your opinion only. Yes, I have known people who could not wait to die, but they were not all Christians. And the Christians I've known like that were Judeo-Anti-Christians. It is not surprising that the cult of death would be among those already spiritually dead.

This cult undermines man’s normal life-preserving instincts. This cult teaches that life is “suppose to suck” and relief is on the way “I can’t wait to die – then it will get better.”

He who loves this life shall loose it. And the attitude that life if supposed to "suck" is a personal one; one which is not scriptural. We are supposed to rejoice in our hardship; knowing that something better awaits.

The scripture is pretty clear that this flesh life is not the final destination and that we are not to seek the things of the flesh. In fact, worldly riches are not even promised to us. The things we are to seek are not "of this world". Now, if that "sucks" to you, then I suggest that it is your attitude which needs adjusting; not scripture.

YHWH Bless

[aleajactaest]

Very interesting!!!!! Lots of very highly conjectural speculations . . . i love it!

I am in the "almost never ending" process of writing something about death, resurrection, hell, heaven and, perhaps, in between. In between???? Hummmmm!!! However keep alive this subject; your inputs facilitate my humble endeavor by enriching and reviewing it, making appropriate corrections.

I will participate to this discussion. Possible fireworks ahead.

Giuseppe Fausto

[mouthypatricia]

Fausto dear brother- so happy to see your posts!

[JamesTheJust]

Job 3
Job Speaks
1 After this, Job opened his mouth and cursed the day of his birth. 2 He said:

3 "May the day of my birth perish,
and the night it was said, 'A boy is born!'

4 That day—may it turn to darkness;
may God above not care about it;
may no light shine upon it.

5 May darkness and deep shadow [a] claim it once more;
may a cloud settle over it;
may blackness overwhelm its light.

6 That night—may thick darkness seize it;
may it not be included among the days of the year
nor be entered in any of the months.

7 May that night be barren;
may no shout of joy be heard in it.

8 May those who curse days curse that day,
those who are ready to rouse Leviathan.

9 May its morning stars become dark;
may it wait for daylight in vain
and not see the first rays of dawn,

10 for it did not shut the doors of the womb on me
to hide trouble from my eyes.

11 "Why did I not perish at birth,
and die as I came from the womb?

12 Why were there knees to receive me
and breasts that I might be nursed?

13 For now I would be lying down in peace;
I would be asleep and at rest

14 with kings and counselors of the earth,
who built for themselves places now lying in ruins,

15 with rulers who had gold,
who filled their houses with silver.

16 Or why was I not hidden in the ground like a stillborn child,
like an infant who never saw the light of day?

17 [b]There the wicked cease from turmoil,
and there the weary are at rest.

18 Captives also enjoy their ease;
they no longer hear the slave driver's shout.

19 The small and the great are there,
and the slave is freed from his master.

20 "Why is light given to those in misery,
and life to the bitter of soul,

21 to those who long for death that does not come,
who search for it more than for hidden treasure,

22 who are filled with gladness
and rejoice when they reach the grave?

23 Why is life given to a man
whose way is hidden,
whom God has hedged in?

24 For sighing comes to me instead of food;
my groans pour out like water.

25 What I feared has come upon me;
what I dreaded has happened to me.

26 I have no peace, no quietness;
I have no rest, but only turmoil."

There is no indication here that the righteous loose conscientiousness, but that rather they are at rest.

[matthewott]

I think the discussion would get better if Mountainman actually addressed the points made in support of "life after death". While he is good at finding scriptural passages to support his view, he is not providing the substantive proof that those passages were actually used for that context, and in many cases does not seem to applying a common sense approach to his view. Although I applaud him for believing in a final resurrection, it is the in beteween that bothers me. I think he is making a concerted effort to ensure that Christians don't fall into the "this life sucks" rut and has thusly found a way out for them. While his intentions are good.....what's that saying..."the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Don't make it easier to be a Christian. That is not Yahweh's intention. That is what the jews did to Christianity...they turned it into a "feel-good" religion.

[matthewott]

13 For now I would be lying down in peace;
I would be asleep and at rest

This is one of many verses in the bible that make reference to the dead being asleep, which is what I have always believed, but sleep in reference to rest could bring the understanding of the afterlife to a different level. HOWEVER, none of these obvious biblical references make even the slightest hint at our spirits dying along with our bodies, until the resurrection.

[JamesTheJust]

The supposition I think Mountain man is trying to put forward is that we cease to exist after death. It would be akin to saying that any and all conscientiousness of ourselves is destroyed. But this cannot be supported by scripture. "WE" remain in spirit although our flesh is destroyed. Otherwise, on what will we be judged? Stating that Israelites cease to exist after death, places us on the same level as a mamzer, heathen or jew, who truly do cease to exist after death; having no spirit; therefore, no separate conscientiousness apart from the flesh.