Are the Dead Alive Now? (NO, if you are a Sadducee!)

[Mountainman]

Please be specific when you say I “have not addressed your arguments”.

I believe Wierwille logically explains the misunderstanding of some scriptures which imply that the dead are alive NOW rather than after the resurrection. I believe I have answered your points. Please be specific.

Regarding Matthew 27: 52-53 “graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53. And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

Let’s say 100 bodies of the saints were resurrected. Then I would agree that 101 people were resurrected – that’s all!

How do I know? Because undertakers are still in business!

But I believe Wierwille hits the nail on the head in his reason to conclude it was added by scribes. He had a simple rule that I believe in. “The few difficult verses should not negate the many clear verses" and EVERYTHING about these verses do not fit in with the many clear.

But heck I’ll agree with you on this verse – because it does NOT prove your point that the Dead are Alive now for everybody else! It proves ONLY 101 people are raised from the dead!!

Gentlemen, please Gooogle “Talk to the dead now” or something like that. You will see what kind of hooky-pookism that you are being sucked into. Spiritualism, séances, talking trumpets, card reading, crystal ball gazing, etc. Dang!!


Matthewott: >>>Where does this Breath of Life, our SPIRIT, go? It CANNOT simply vanish until the time of the resurrection! What about Abraham's Bosom? What about Lazarus?

I believe our spirit, our soul, goes out like a candle flame when it runs out of wax. When our body wears out, our soul life [the spirit of man] goes out – until the resurrection!

Regarding Lazarus, that was a parable to Pharisees who believed in immediate rewards and punishments immediately after death. See my reply to this earlier in this thread.


Ya Bless!


Mountain man.

[matthewott]

I believe our spirit, our soul, goes out like a candle flame when it runs out of wax. When our body wears out, our soul life [the spirit of man] goes out – until the resurrection!

Then that would mean that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are COMPLETELY DEAD, having NO EXISTENCE AT ALL and that Yahshua was lying when he said Yahweh is the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Just because we are promised a PHYSICAL resurrection does not mean our SPIRIT needs resurrected too. To say that our spirit gets 'snuffed out' is like saying that Yahweh is susceptible to death; pieces of Yahweh's existence do not just 'disappear'.

[Mountainman]

Matthewott>>>”Then that would mean that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are COMPLETELY DEAD, having NO EXISTENCE AT ALL and that Yahshua was lying when he said Yahweh is the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

Why do you say Yahshua “was lying?” God IS the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but he is NOT the God of the dead, he is the God of the living. It’s the Satan inspired “God of this world” that teaches “You will not surly die.” The DEVIL is the God of the dead!!

Do you want to talk to the dead now? Google it! You sure can and so can all non-Christians!

Do you want to talk to your dead Grandma? I can arrange that!

Mountainman

[matthewott]

God IS the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but he is NOT the God of the dead, he is the God of the living.

You appropriately capitalized IS to substantiate my point...how convenient. According to your dogma, the appropriate word would be WAS, as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob SIMPLY NO LONGER EXIST! That would make Yahweh the god of the non-existent (dead) and you a Sadducee! Why can't you make the distinction between physical death and complete death? The death of our physical bodies was the death Satan lied about and is the only death he has power over...and even that will end soon.

Yah Bless
Matt

[Mountainman]

Matthewott>>>the appropriate word would be WAS, as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob SIMPLY NO LONGER EXIST!

The "IS" in question does not prove they are alive now. For example "I am the God of your forefathers (who are dead)." or "God is the God of your forefathers (who are dead)."

Also the great "I Am" Verse in John 8, Jesus does NOT say "Abraham is watching us now and is seeing the Messiah and he is glad now"

No it says John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it and was glad"

"rjoiced, saw, and was" are all past tense because Abraham saw Jesus in his foreknowledge - like all of Israel looked foreward to his coming to.

Abraham is not alive now and not smoking Cuban cigars floating in the clouds watching us!

[matthewott]

The "IS" in question does not prove they are alive now. For example "I am the God of your forefathers (who are dead)." or "God is the God of your forefathers (who are dead)."

Once again you are trying to prove Yahweh is the Elohim of the dead.

"rjoiced, saw, and was" are all past tense because Abraham saw Jesus in his foreknowledge

WHEN did he have this foreknowledge? During his physical existence or spiritual existence? Simply having foreknowledge does not constitute Abraham's non-existence. Yahweh could have just spoken with Abraham before being birthed into the earthly plane as Yahshua.

Abraham is not alive now and not smoking Cuban cigars floating in the clouds watching us!

Where does it say he is not? But there sure seems to be a lot of evidence to the contrary...Matthew 22:31-32 "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by Elohim saying 'I am the Elohim of Abraham, and the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob'? Yahweh is not the Elohim of the dead, but of the living."

It doesn't get more obvious than that.

[Mountainman]

>>>Matthew 22:31-32 "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by Elohim saying 'I am the Elohim of Abraham, and the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob'? Yahweh is not the Elohim of the dead, but of the living."

Again, he is talking about "resurrection of the dead." You have to be dead first to be resurrected. The dead are not alive now! He did not say "as touching the re-unification of our imortal spiritual bodies with our physical bodies which will happen in the future"

NO he said you die and later God resurrects us!

It's the pagan Gods that are the Gods of the dead. Heck I think those religions have their people spending more time talking to and preparing for the after-life & under world. The Old Testament is nothing like the Egypian's book of the dead. It doesn't go there! It is God talking to living people, not communicating to "dead people." The exception is Saul talking to the devil posessed woman from Endor - and God did not approve!

I know a woman in the sauna who reads tarot cards. Do you want to communicate with a dead relative? I think she can help you out.

[matthewott]

Mountainman, you just seem to be missing the whole point. You are professing that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as well as all of our predecessors, are COMPLETELY DEAD; that at the time of their physical, bodily death, they also experienced the 2nd death...spiritual obliteration, the snuffed out candle you referred to. That dogma completely refutes Matt 22:31-32! If everyone is GONE, NON-EXISTENT, DEAD, then why are our Forefathers listed as evidence to prove Yahweh is the God of the Living? Please stop skirting the obvious. The resurrection is that of our PHYSICAL bodies, so that we ALL may live ON EARTH with Yahshua our King. If our spirits need to be remade for your so-called 'spiritual resurrection', what was the point to our prior experience on earth?

[matthewott]

I also don't see where our deceased brethren need the written word, either, therefore no need to discuss their situation in it. You need to realize too, that our bodies do not disappear either. One of Yahweh's fundamental laws of nature: Matter cannot be "erased". Even our bodies simply change from one form of matter to another; living tissue to dust. Being ALIVE in no way constitutes the necessity of a mortal body, and as to WHERE our spirits reside until the resurrection....Abraham's Bosom. It seems to me the only reason for a dogma such as yours is the inability to find a definitive answer as to where all our kindred spirits of the deceased are located. I myself do not have a definitive answer except Abraham's Bosom, and there is no thesis on that. I can't accept the fact that we just "disappear" like Yahweh had no idea what to do with us. I had long subscribed to the theory that deceased spirits 'sleep', as evidenced by the RESURRECTION of Lazarus, but now not entirely sure since I can't exactly define what Abraham's Bosom is!

[wmfinck]

Mountainman,

Explain this verse from 1 Peter, and try to stay on the topic of 1 Peter without running and hiding behind some other passage:

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Dead Adamites live in the Spirit!!! ONLY OUR BODIES DIE!!!

If the spirit dies with the body, tell me what Christ is saying here:

Luke 12:4-5 4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Just admit it Mountainman: You are a Sadducee!!!