Are the Dead Alive Now? (NO, if you are a Sadducee!)

[Mountainman]

Pastor Vissor:

I believe the verses you quote don't challenge anything I've been saying in this thread.

The verse that WmF quoted in Revelation DOES however. The one about the souls of the dead being under an alter.

I don't believe this is literal. I don't believe the souls of the dead are in a cage under an alter. I believe it is symbolic.

Yashua's resurrection is what set him apart from everybody else. He is the ONLY one resurrected FROM the dead.

[wmfinck]

You are still wrong about the Sadducees. Go read your Bible. You are not getting the whole picture, because you have not read the entire Bible. I would take the time to explain all of this to an honest enquirer, however you want to "make mincemeat" of my words, and you don't have a damned clue as to what the scripture says.

Get this: "And do not fear from those killing the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear He who is able also to slay soul and body in Gehenna!" When the body dies, the soul still lives. Keep showing us your blind ignorance.

[Mountainman]

WmF>>I would take the time to explain all of this to an honest enquirer, however you want to "make mincemeat" of my words, and you don't have a damned clue as to what the scripture says.

I am an honest enquirer. You are right about the Old Testament. I use to believe it didn't apply to me. You CI guys are challenging all of my beliefs and I have a new found interest in the Old Testament.

Regarding the Mincemeat phrase, I was trying to mimic your street-wise vocabulary. You often have similar comments about people who you disagree with and I find that refreshing compared to the domesticated white-boy talk that 'Christians" have. I respect you and I want you to know that.

BTW where is the scripture and verse about Peter & Paul believing JC was "alive" while dead?

[Mountainman]

WmF:

I just heard you say that you thought the imprisoned spirits mentioned in Jude and 1Peter refers to the fallen angles. This was on the 2 seedline #12 teaching.

You don’t seem to agree with that in this thread. Have you changed your mind?

[JamesTheJust]

I don't believe this is literal. I don't believe the souls of the dead are in a cage under an alter. I believe it is symbolic.

While this may have been symbolic in nature, there are a few things we can infer about the "dead":

They are aware

They can speak

They can feel

This would imply that the dead are not literally dead and, although not active participants in the unfolding drama, they do have consciousness.

We also see this in parables, such as Lazarus and the rich man.

PS: I thought at some point you were going to address the scripture I gave concerning those who arose from their graves and appeared to many?

[wmfinck]

No mountainman, I have not changed my mind. What you have most certainly done is take my words out of context.

Those in the "prison" in 1 Peter Chapter 3 are the ADAMITES alienated from Yahweh, to whom Yahshua Christ preached the gospel. This is also referred to by Paul in Ephesians 4:8-10. This prison was the hell, hades, or underworld that held the souls of the dead, a concept which the Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, Babylonians and the Germanic tribes (I have documentation) all expressed in their literature. This prison is no more, upon the reconciliation of Adamic man to our God which is in Christ. All of these symbols are only metaphors describing the fallen state of Man and his alienation from God, a story absolutely clear in the Bible..

The unjust of 2 Peter Chapter 2 are reserved for the Day of Judgement. I see this as the "Lake of Fire" in the Revelation, which I believe is merely a metaphor for permanent destruction: a cessation of existence. That is why Death and Hell are cast into it. Enoch tells us that the "unclean spirits" derived from bastards - people of mixed races. Jude states that they are "twice dead", which I interpret to mean that once they are dead in body, they are as good as dead in spirit - because they are slated for that destruction.

To answer your other question in this thread.
1 Peter Chapter 3 attests that Christ was "put to death in the flesh", not in the spirit, upon which He "went and preached unto the spirits in prison". Paul alludes to this same thing in Ephesians Chapter 4 (and see Luke 4:18, Acts 2:31). If we believe our Bibles, then we must believe that the spirits of men are not "dead" as the flesh is dead.

If the consciences of the children of Yahweh do not survive this world, then there is no lesson, and no point to living life in this world. Read I Corinthians chapter 15: where there is no Spirit (the eternal consciousness of the children of Yahweh) there is no resurrection (a return from "sleep": a return to a physical body in this world).

[Mountainman]

James the Just >>>>PS: I thought at some point you were going to address the scripture I gave concerning those who arose from their graves and appeared to many?

I posted my reply to those scriptures and sent you a private message (I thought). It's on page 2 of this thread titled Matthew 27 52-53

I would enjoy reading your comments!!

Merry Christmas & God Bless

[SwordBrethren]

Luke 16:

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.




John 8

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[Mountainman]

Luke 16 is a parable. The purpose of the parable is verse 31:”neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

From Victor Paul Wierwille’s book Are the Dead Alive Now? Pg73

“We must note first of all that this Scriptural passage is a parable, which again is a figure of speech. In fact, in two ancient Greek manuscripts – the Bezae Caulabrigiensis and the Koridethian-Caesaren text – words are included which have been deleted in other translations. Both of these ancient manuscripts begin Luke 16:19 with the words: eipen de kai heteran parabolen, which translated means, “and He said also another parable….. The confusion and misunderstanding of the parable in Luke 16 lies in the Pharisaic beliefs. Luke 16:14 indicates that this parable is addressed to the Pharisees. So Jesus wisely judged the Pharisees out of their own mouths, from their own vantage point, for the Pharisees believed in rewards and punishments immediately upon death as so many believe today. This parable does NOT say that Jesus believed in immediate rewards and punishments after death”

Regarding John 8, please see my reply to that in the Yashua Christ IS Yahweh section… the – John 8:58 I am – thread.

Merry Christmas & God bless!

[SwordBrethren]

Luke 16 is a parable. The purpose of the parable is verse 31:”neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

From Victor Paul Wierwille’s book Are the Dead Alive Now? Pg73

“We must note first of all that this Scriptural passage is a parable, which again is a figure of speech. In fact, in two ancient Greek manuscripts – the Bezae Caulabrigiensis and the Koridethian-Caesaren text – words are included which have been deleted in other translations. Both of these ancient manuscripts begin Luke 16:19 with the words: eipen de kai heteran parabolen, which translated means, “and He said also another parable….. The confusion and misunderstanding of the parable in Luke 16 lies in the Pharisaic beliefs. Luke 16:14 indicates that this parable is addressed to the Pharisees. So Jesus wisely judged the Pharisees out of their own mouths, from their own vantage point, for the Pharisees believed in rewards and punishments immediately upon death as so many believe today. This parable does NOT say that Jesus believed in immediate rewards and punishments after death”

Regarding John 8, please see my reply to that in the Yashua Christ IS Yahweh section… the – John 8:58 I am – thread.

Merry Christmas & God bless!

Yahshua doesn't use parables that are improper/incorrect/invalid/wrong.

It may be a parable but He wouldn't use a parable that would mislead us on a major point of doctrine. Why would He do that?