Are the Dead Alive Now? (NO, if you are a Sadducee!)

[wmfinck]

Just because I chose to transliterate, rather than translate, a particular word in my translation doesn’t mean that I do not understand it. Actually, this word is a name – and therefore it probably should not be merely translated anyway. In the notes for Luke 12:5 in my book The Records of Luke you would find the following:

11. “Gehenna”, (γέεννα (1067), Thayer gives a concise history of the place. The word is apparently derived from γαι- (γαῖα, a form of γῆ, 1093, “land”) and ἐννα, the “Hinnom” of the Old Testament. It appears once in the LXX, Γαίεννα, at Josh. 18:16. Elsewhere in the LXX it is the “valley of Ennom” or the “valley of the son of Ennom”, i.e. Josh. 15:8; IV (II) Kin. 23:10; II Chr. 33:6; Jer. 7:31 and 32; 19:6; and 39 (32):5. Ennom is in the A.V. Hinnom (Strong’s Hebrew #2011). Apparently the sacrifice of children by fire occurred here (II Chr. 33:6) and so its usage in this context is quite profound. Later the place was used for the burning of refuse of all sorts.

The idea of being tossed into Gehenna, in my mind, is certainly a metaphor for a permanent cessation of existence, and little else.

[wmfinck]

Question to William Finck:
I have not really familiarized myself much with cults and their teachings, I've just made a general practice of staying away from them once discovered. When these people show up with these very odd interpretations of scriptures here and in the chats at Talkshoe, do you think they are mostly just mavericks working up their own private versions of Christianity or are they reflecting the influence and teachings of any particular cult groups?

Pilgrim, sometimes I think it is a little of both. But I do not follow any of the mainstream sects and all of their little idiosyncracies. So I do not know. Dan, for instance, with his theory that Noah's wife was a Kenite, is just a loan quack. But Mountainman's heresies are not unique - I have seen many others espouse them. Too bad most people don't actually read their Bibles and believe them.

[wmfinck]

WMF>>>The word is "sight", not "vision" which in modern times, as you infer, implies something not real. The Greek word is ὅραμα hopama,

ME>>> Per my Young’s Concordance, the word translated “Vision” in Matthew 17:9 is the same word translated for Peter’s “vision” of unclean food in Acts 10:3, 10:17, 10:19, and 11:5. In fact listen to this... Acts 11:5 where Peter is relating his vision to the “brethren in Judaea” “ I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a TRANCE I saw a *vision*” Are you saying that a literal “sheet” came down with unclean food/animals in it? And he heard voices too!

I don’t think so.

Your scoffing does not change the fact that, even though Peter was in a trance, the things he saw were so real to him that he thought he actually could eat them. For that reason the word ὅραμα, a site, is appropriate. In contrast, the apostles did not think that Christ walking on the water was real, and so φάντασμά was the word used.

WMF>>> 1 Peter 3:19 “Those "spirits in prison" were the dead who passed even before the flood!”

Me>> Dang – I thought this passage was about the fallen angles being in prison! Are you saying that when Christians die they go to “prison”??? I think not! I think they are the Jude 6 “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting CHAINS under darkness unto the judgment of the great day”

Dang. Wrong again. You should actually read what Peter is saying more carefully, because he is clearly referring to the disobedient of Adamic man, and has no concern here for fallen angels. Going back to the Genesis 6 account, it was due to the wickedness of Adamic man that Yahweh grieved and destroyed the land, and not due to the fallen angels. The wicked races are expected to be so, and are not at any time the intended recipients of the gospel. In 2 Peter, the apostle explains that the only thing that awaits the fallen angels is destruction! Try reading 2 Peter chapter 2. Maybe that will help you get this straight.

WmF>>>Saul spoke to Samuel after Samuel had died.

Yes but, 1 Samuel 16:14 “ But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.” ‘Evil Spirit from the Lord’ refers to the God of this World IMO. Also, I’m sure that he is later rebuked for consulting the familiar spirit from the Prophetess of Endor.

I’ll have to wait until tomorrow to reply to Matthew 27: 52-53.

Here you seem to have missed, even agreed with, the central point: Samuel was conscious after his death, and Saul spoke to him. No "Yes but", unless you want to deny the Scripture.

The bottom line is, that Yahweh is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and that Yahweh is the God of the living, and not the God of the dead. Therefore, Abraham, who rejoiced to see Yahshua's day, is living and is not dead!!! For an Adamic child of Yahweh, death is only an absence from this physical world. Therefore, Paul says that being absent from the body, we are present with Yahweh. This is all a part of the Christian revelation, which you apparently do not understand. While you are reading Peter, consider going on to actually read the rest of your Bible.

[Mountainman]

WmF>>Dang. Wrong again. You should actually read what Peter is saying more carefully, because he is clearly referring to the disobedient of Adamic man, and has no concern here for fallen angels

I Peter 1: 3 “...hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the *resurrection of Jesus Christ *from the dead.”

We have 2 things being talked about here. Resurrection FROM the dead. It teaches life after the resurrection. Not life after death.

Also regarding I Peter 3: 19-20.... I still see the fallen angels here. But I’ll consider your view. If you are right, maybe I’ll see it.


WmF>>> Here you seem to have missed, even agreed with, the central point: Samuel was conscious after his death, and Saul spoke to him. No "Yes but", unless you want to deny the Scripture.

I believe Yahweh’s Word teaches that a prophetess of Endor was possessed by a devil spirit.

Leviticus 19: 31 “regard not them that have familiar spirits neither seek after wizards to be defiled by them”

Lev 20: 6 “And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits and after wizards to go a whoring after them, I will even set My face against that soul”

Saul started out doing the right thing.

1 Samuel 28 3 “And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits and the wizards out of the land.”

But then he lost communication with Yahweh:

I Samuel 28: 6 “and when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not”

The Saul went to the God of this World (Satan)

I Samuel 28: 7 “Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit”

He sneaked around at night.

Samuel 28:8 “And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment and he went and two men with him and they came to the woman by night.”


He tells the prophetess why he needs a familiar spirit.

I Samuel 28: 15 “God is departed from me and answereth me no more”

The Prophetess conjures up a familiar spirit for Saul and Yahweh wasn’t happy.

I Chronicles 10: 13 “So Saul died for his transgression ... “and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit to enquire of it”


WmF>>>The bottom line is, that Yahweh is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and that Yahweh is the God of the living, and not the God of the dead. Therefore, Abraham, who rejoiced to see Yashua’s day, is living and is not dead!!!

John 8:56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

All the verbs are past tense not present tense. Rejoiced not rejoice. Saw not see. Was glad. Not is glad. That’s because Abraham is not alive now.


WmF>>>> Paul says that being absent from the body, we are present with Yahweh.

II Corinthians 5:8 “and *willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.”

He does not say “absent from the body, we are present with Yahweh. He says he is *willing*.

When will he be absent from the body and present from with the Lord? When we are clothed with the spiritual body that Yashua had as mentioned in II Corinthians 5: 1-4 which happens at his return.

[wmfinck]

All of your reasoning only elucidates your stubbornness. I will make it real simple for you. If Yahweh IS the God of Abraham - as Scripture attests, and if Yahweh is the God of the living, and NOT the God of the dead, how can YOU assume that Abraham is dead? His body is dead indeed, but he lives! If you doubt that, then you are a Sadducee indeed.

I Samuel 28:3 "Now Samuel was dead... "
I Samuel 28:14: "And Samuel said to Saul..."
I Samuel 28:16: "Then Samuel said..."
1 Samuel 28:20: "...because of the words of Samuel..."

The Bible says that the spirit which the woman conjured was Samuel, and the words that spirit spoke to Saul were attributed to Samuel. I will believe the Bible. I do not care what you believe. God is true. You know what you are.

Revelation 6:9-10:
"Revelation 6:9-10 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? "

YOU may well be dead after your body dies. I know better. Keep denying the scripture, Sadducee.

[Mountainman]

I’m curious. What do you believe Yahweh’s Word teaches about death?

Do you believe death is a gain not an enemy? Do you believe the dead’s souls are alive and fully conscious and in some kind of prison?

[Not to be repetitive but I believe The Word teaches that death is an enemy. That there is no consciousness after death. That Yahweh resurrects us from the dead – in the future. That JC is the only human resurrected from the dead with an immortal spiritual body. That death is referred to as “sleep” because we are awakened – at the resurrection. That the adversary teaches “you shall not die” in the garden and unto this day. That Devil Spirit gods continue to preach this lie and that devil “familiar” spirits continue to manifest themselves to trick people to believe “you don’t die – you pass on”]

>>>>His body is dead indeed, but he lives! If you doubt that, then you are a Sadducee indeed.

I thought the Sadducees didn’t believe in the “resurrection”. I believe in life after a resurrection FROM the dead but I don’t believe in life after death.

I Peter 1: 3 “...hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the *resurrection of Jesus Christ *from the dead.”

What do you think I Peter 1: 3 is talking about? We have 2 things here - death and resurrection from death. Do you believe that JC was alive when he was dead and the “resurrection” was just a creation of a body for his soul which had no spiritual body? [I believe he was dead. His body was decaying and seeing corruption. He had no consciousness. When he was resurrected on Saturday at sunset with a spiritual body he went and preached to the imprisoned spirits]

Regarding Saul; didn’t Christ expose the adversary and make an open show of him? Wasn’t our knowledge of the adversary, - who he is and how he operates – greatly enhanced with the revelation provided by JC?

My point is that in the Old Testament I Samuel 16:14 which says “But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.” And also “familiar spirits”.... versus like these were not understood then like we understand them today (after the messiah). ..... “an evil spirit from the Lord” and “familiar spirits” refers to the god of this world – Satan who was “familiar” with dead people – NOT actually them.

Ya Bless!

[Mountainman]

From footnote #24 page 257 from Jesus Christ Our Passover by Victor Paul Wierwille:

Matthew 27:52 and 53 are clearly added by scribes. Manuscript 354 in Venice, Italy, omits these verses. Though other textual documentation for this has not yet been found, it must be realized that the earliest manuscript including this section of Matthew 27 dates from the fourth century A.D. These verses must be an addition since they are contradictory to other scriptures which teach us that the dead are dead and will remain so until Christ returns. Until that time, only Christ has been raised bodily from death unto everlasting life. Textual critics as well as marginal notes in other old manuscripts have recognized these verses as later interpolations. The phrase “after his resurrection” in Matthew 27:53 demonstrates the passage is totally out of context, obviously a scribal addition.

[PastorVisser]

Mountainman,

What's your thoughts on these passages?

Heb 9:27; "It is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment."

Ecc 12:6-7; "Remember your Creator before the silver cord is snapped. Then the dust of mortals goes back to the ground as it was before, and the breath of life goes back to God who gave it."

War for Christ,

[wmfinck]

I believe the Bible. You have obviously not even read the Bible. Peter and Paul both testify that Christ was alive during the time in which his body was dead. Christ, being Yahweh, His Spirit cannot die anyway! You are a materialist. A modern-day Sadducee. You do not know what the Sadducees denied, because you have not read your Bible. The most important message in Christianity is that the body is only a mere vessel for a living spirit. And you don't get it.

Go read your Bible, then come back and talk to me. You claimed you could make mince meat out of my words. You couldn't make mince meat out of a cow chip with a butcher knife. Here, I have something for you:

Jeremiah 23:5 Behold , the days come, saith the LORD [Hebrew: Yahweh], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jeremiah 23:6 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD [Hebrew: Yahweh] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Jeremiah states that the Christ would be called "Yahweh our righteousness" because that is exactly who He is!!!

[Mountainman]

Acts 23: 6-9
Then Paul perceiving that the one part are of the Sadducees but the other of the Pharisees cried out in the council, “Men, brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees! Concerning hope and *resurrection* of the dead am I judged!” 7 And upon his saying this there came a discord among the Pharisees and Sadducees and the multitude was divided. 8 For indeed the Sadducees say that there is not to be a resurrection, nor are there messengers nor a spirit, but Pharisees confess both things.

The Sadducees didn’t believe in a *resurrection* FROM the dead. You have to be dead before you can be resurrected FROM the dead.

WmF>>Peter and Paul both testify that Christ was alive during the time in which his body was dead.

Scripture and verse please. I believe they both believed JC was DEAD, then resurrected FROM the dead.