Brother Ryan on Christogenea

[Staropramen]

If anyone hasn't heard these before check out Pastor Downey's two programs with Ken Lent [Bill is on the second part also] called "Is the Constitution Christian?";

Part 1;

http://christogenea.org/podcasts/constitution-christian

Part 2;

http://christogenea.org/podcasts/consti ... h-2nd-2013

Alot of interesting things discussed here.

[Fenwick]

Ryan is not a proponent of Bakunin or Proudhon. He is only a proponent of Christ.

The point in mentoning the early Anarchists, is to show that their philosophical concept of anarchy was quite different from the modern concept.

Modern White anarchists are youths disaffected with the system entirely. Part of Ryan's endeavor is to persuade them that Christ and the truth found in CI is what they seek, and the answer to their disaffection.

If that was the case, it wasn't immediately evident from your discussion that was broadcast. I didn't mean to suggest he was a follower of Bakunin, only that it was that form of anarchism he was discussing (rather than the directionless anger of many youth "anarchists").

However, his words seemed to go beyond persuading anarchists, and into a rejection of the concept of authority, as when he discussed traffic laws and narcotics. If he has has success in convincing anarchists that Christianity has what they seek, that is all for the better, but I'm struggling to see how many aspects of the law wouldn't put them off CI.

Unless it's a case of using anarchism as a stepping stone to transition to CI, which would make a lot more sense than trying to combine the two.

[Lang]

How can Christ be personally the king? He is not here yet. Someone or something has to represent Him. Hierarchy, order and authorithy are needed. Fenwick's posts seem to be more sane to me. A NS/Fascist chain of authorithy is good, just make sure they representing the best interests of God on earth ie following the Law.

[wmfinck]

How can Christ be personally the king? He is not here yet. Someone or something has to represent Him. Hierarchy, order and authorithy are needed. Fenwick's posts seem to be more sane to me. A NS/Fascist chain of authorithy is good, just make sure they representing the best interests of God on earth ie following the Law.

The Judges model is the model of government ordained for Israel by Yahweh God. Simple and patriarchal, and judges were usually only required when one Israelite trespassed against another.

The word of Yahweh states that under this model, Yahweh was king.

When the people demanded an earthly king, Israelites were put under what Ryan calls statism, and he is correct.

Christ should be king. If we all obeyed Christ, we would not need the statist model, the government bureaucracies that we suffer under today.

That is our future, as promised in the Gospel.

[Lang]

How can Christ be personally the king? He is not here yet. Someone or something has to represent Him. Hierarchy, order and authorithy are needed. Fenwick's posts seem to be more sane to me. A NS/Fascist chain of authorithy is good, just make sure they representing the best interests of God on earth ie following the Law.

The Judges model is the model of government ordained for Israel by Yahweh God. Simple and patriarchal, and judges were usually only required when one Israelite trespassed against another.

The word of Yahweh states that under this model, Yahweh was king.

When the people demanded an earthly king, Israelites were put under what Ryan calls statism, and he is correct.

Christ should be king. If we all obeyed Christ, we would not need the statist model, the government bureaucracies that we suffer under today.

That is our future, as promised in the Gospel.

Ok, that is understandable now. Its the Judges government you are talking about.

Please Bill, check this thread: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=6253

I asked you there if I may have your permission to translate the Christogenea NT to portuguese.

[Kentucky]

How can Christ be personally the king? He is not here yet.

Ahh, but He is here. Not in the pageant of prophecy, in a theater of war near you, when Babylon goes down, but as He declared, "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" Mt. 28:20. Otherwise, why would our founding fathers of the American Revolution have had the motto: 'No King but Jesus'?

Someone or something has to represent Him.

That is a given from the beginning i.e. "For in the image of God has God made mankind" Ge. 9:6.

Hierarchy, order and authorithy are needed.

Order and authority... yes. Hierarchy... no. It's the difference between a presbyter - power from the top down, to an ecclesia - power from the bottom up. The latter was the system of the Old Testament patriarchs of captains of tens to captains of thousands (Deut. 1:15). The catholic church is based on hierarchy and is opposed to what we call grassroots organization.

Fenwick's posts seem to be more sane to me. A NS/Fascist chain of authorithy is good, just make sure they representing the best interests of God on earth ie following the Law.

The National Socialist model had an inborn Weltanschauung taking into consideration the racial aspects of Christianity. Every German, every White man had the propensity to glorify God for the advancement of the Kingdom; and they did, regardless of whether they won the war or not. The position of Christ in NS Germany was far above that found in present day America. The so called state and hence "statism" is really just a state of mind and how much our people are willing to surrender their lives to their Creator. The more we cleanse the temple (I Cor. 6:19), the more He dwells within His people. If we have "the mind of Christ" (I Cor. 2:16), the government shall be upon His shoulder (Isaiah 9:6).

Mark

[Gaius]

This is an interesting exchange.

With all the caveats, thanking Bill for email on this and not seeing Bro Ryan in any way other than a Christian, I retain very grave doubts about this. "Anarchy" can give great excuses to the self-indulgent, the self-obsessed and the spirit of rebellion, much as in another thread Bill posts about Pagans in NS.

There is imho a danger in this direction which will provide ammunition to talmudist propagandizers, and whether their smears are accurate or not they will make much of it. Like it or not, Bro Ryan's tattooed appearance and talk of Anarchy is controversial and imho is a gift to his and Bill's detractors. Likewise, his focus on America is no doubt meaningful in America. Where I am, I could not present bro Ryan to any CI enquirer because they would most probably not listen, to put it mildly....
I realise that saying this may be inappropriate because you could say, well Christogenea is American ...
OK, but ...

This (imho mistaken) trend has the potential to mire CI in yet more endless/pointless arguments, claims and counterclaims thus wasting time that could be more profitably used in preaching the Gospel.

God loves order.

[wmfinck]

This is an interesting exchange.

With all the caveats, thanking Bill for email on this and not seeing Bro Ryan in any way other than a Christian, I retain very grave doubts about this. "Anarchy" can give great excuses to the self-indulgent, the self-obsessed and the spirit of rebellion, much as in another thread Bill posts about Pagans in NS.

...

God loves order.

The entire point of Scripture is that man is chastised until he learns to be obedient to God. As Christians, we accept and submit to Christ as King, and therefore on earth we are a nation of kings and priests. There is a paternalistic hierarchy of elders in the organization of family and community, but that is as far as the "state" goes. THAT was also the model ordained by Yahweh before Israel demanded a King (human statism) and THAT is what Ryan calls "anarchy".

Levites had only a small role in tabernacle maintenance, rituals, and tribal administration (town clerks and judges).

God loves order, but God does not advocate Statism: that is why all the great empires were "beasts", why Nimrod was singled out in Genesis 10, etc etc. YAHWEH is KING and therefore Man requires no earthly king, and certainly no tyrannical bureaucracy. If men choose to sin, other men should rise up and stand against it. Even in the God-ordained system of the Judges period, men chose to sin and it says in two places that every man did that which was right in his own mind. Therefore the lesson of our punishment is to bring us to Christ. Denying this is to deny the message of the prophets and the Gospel.

There is no doubting that National Socialism was Christian, there is no doubt that the men behind it had excellent intentions, but it was not a perfect state. There is no doubt that Christianity is by its nature (and among other things) both nationalist and socialist, in the TRUE senses of those words. However people would balk at the term "anarchy" as well as "socialism" because of the preconceptions forced upon society because they buy jewish media and books.

I remember telling Ryan that I personally would not call what he advocated "anarchy" but "thearchy" (God rule), and he agreed that the description is correct.

A short collection of my articles in this area:

There Is No Political Solution
http://christogenea.org/articles/there- ... l-solution

Libertarianism Cannot be Christian
http://christogenea.org/articles/libert ... -christian

Christianity is Nationalism
http://christogenea.org/articles/christ ... ationalism

Christian Socialism
http://christogenea.org/articles/christian-socialism

Anti-Christian Materialism, or Christian Socialism, Part Two
http://christogenea.org/articles/anti-c ... m-part-two

...

There is imho a danger in this direction which will provide ammunition to talmudist propagandizers, and whether their smears are accurate or not they will make much of it. Like it or not, Bro Ryan's tattooed appearance and talk of Anarchy is controversial and imho is a gift to his and Bill's detractors. ... Where I am, I could not present bro Ryan to any CI enquirer because they would most probably not listen, to put it mildly....
I realise that saying this may be inappropriate because you could say, well Christogenea is American ...
OK, but ...

This (imho mistaken) trend has the potential to mire CI in yet more endless/pointless arguments, claims and counterclaims thus wasting time that could be more profitably used in preaching the Gospel.

...

First, the introduction of a brother into our world, who has long (maybe 20 years in Ryan's case) been an advocate of our cause even though he is a little different from most of us, is part of an ongoing "trend" and can only be good, because in one way or another it edifies the Body of Christ.

We cannot all be eyes or hands. But is your left big toe conscious of your right elbow? Certainly not, yet the body needs both parts in order to function.

I know just as many of our brethren who would balk if I placed a video in support of my work which showed some proper-speaking and clean-cut stiff in a suit. But he would be just as complimentary to our cause, because the left big toe certainly cannot perform the function of the right elbow.

By the way, I never heard a right elbow complain if the left big toe stepped in poop.

...

Likewise, his focus on America is no doubt meaningful in America.

...

It certainly is. But many Americans in CI have read the countless British Israel books, and never imagined the focus on Britain to exclude Americans! Nor have I known any to be offended.

It is clear to the large majority of Identity Christians, that there are prophecies which several of our repsective Israel nations have fulfilled, but especially America (see my presentations on Micah 4 or Revelation 12). That is just the way it is. Therefore as it is natural for a Brit to highlight the prophecies believed to be describing the isles of the west in their work, so it is for many Americans.

Of course, none of this should ever be interpreted as if to exclude Aussies, New Zealanders, South Africans, or many of the brethren which we have here from other places. The gathering of Israel is to ultimately be from all points on the globe.

By the way, the web traffic at Christogenea over the past 21 days are indeed representative of the typical 21-day period, and out of nearly 14,000 visitors 9,000 of them have been from the US.

But only 784 have been from the UK. Add to that 579 Aussies, 565 Canadians and 65 from New Zealand. Only 52 were from Ireland (concentrated in 5 cities), and there were exactly double that from France. There were 235 from Germany, which is pitiful.

European countries fill out the rest of the top 20, except for South Africa with 209 visitors, and Brazil with 299 visitors, and most of them are probably Lang, LOL.

So if 65% of Ryan's ministry were geared towards Americans, that may only be fair!!!

[Fenwick]

It certainly is. But many Americans in CI have read the countless British Israel books, and never imagined the focus on Britain to exclude Americans! Nor have I known any to be offended.

The BIWF have a section where they draft a declaration of Israelite identity, where they imagine the US president is to be invited to London discuss his role in regathered Israel. Obviously it needs updating.

In Britain you really do have to rely on Americans to get any real access to CI materials, which isn't that upsetting really as American-style CI tends to be more internationally minded than native BI anyway.

The US political system works in way to completely push small parties out of power. I think this is what makes American organisations and nationalist groups more advanced due to being outside the system. In Britain, nationalists and conservative Christians are more likely to try to work within existing power structures like the Anglican church and the electoral system. However any time a nationalist party does see some success, they fracture through internal disagreement and external sabotage.

Racialism and nationalism in Britain are seen less through the light of revolution, and more through restoration of an older ideal. Even radical fascists like Mosley, from whom most organised British nationalism stems, had to rely on this to some degree when painting a picture of the future.

Hence their activism is a tea-party like appeal to precedent and tradition, which does have a heavy presence in CI, however a lot of Brits will simply see the gaudy unpalatable surface of American-style nationalism in Don Black, and never bother to dig deeper.

[Kentucky]

There is imho a danger in this direction which will provide ammunition to talmudist propagandizers, and whether their smears are accurate or not they will make much of it.

When I got into CI in the mid 1970's, the stereotypical adherent was not as diverse as it is now. Some of our people are just quirky and idiosyncratic, even eccentric! Messengers crept in unawares and we were forced to discern the spirit of individuals and leaders around the late 80's and early 90's; things really started to heat up as far as the type of people that were coming into our movement; and we were certainly moving at the time. However, a good number of these new faces were deep cover moles (only time can tell whether they are with us or against us). Let's face it, no matter what we do, the jewish enemy is going to do everything they can to thwart us moving. Take for example, a recent development of a CI pastor aligning himself with a motorcycle group called "The Sadistic Souls." Is this really the image we want to put forth to attract new adherents? To the average rank and file, it would appear to be crazy; yet this pastor, in his mind, may have rationalized it without thinking of the greater whole OR it may have been intentional to gift our enemies with another bizarre image of who and what we're about.

Who knows for sure? And they have succeeded to a degree, by getting us stuck in the mire of way too many personalities and doctrines, when our primary mission is carrying the Good News of our identity. And yet, it has challenged us to have a wholistic understanding of the Bible, which is a good thing. Judeos dismiss the Law saying there's only two we need to obey and that is to love God and to love thy neighbor. However, that verse says upon these two hang or hinge the rest of the Law. The principle is our relationship with God (the first 4 of the Ten Commandments) and our relationship with each other (the other 6).

I remember hearing this true story about a preacher who decided to disguise himself as a bum and went to his own church one Sunday. The congregation was repelled by this hobo and treated him poorly, until he shed his disguise and they were shocked to see that it was their own pastor. Many were in tears and put to shame for their behavior. I remember growing up and being somewhat rebellious from the cultural paradigm of the 60's and despite my sin nature, my mom and dad still prayed for me and loved me... and look at me today lol. They never did agree with my CI beliefs, but they had the Christian love that is required of kindred.

Like it or not, Bro Ryan's tattooed appearance and talk of Anarchy is controversial and imho is a gift to his and Bill's detractors.

Like I said above, the gifting has been going on for quite awhile. It's not that we don't care, but that we are inundated with a plethora of brushfires, which we are compelled to put out. And that's not an easy task. We don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, even though the baby might have been playing in the mud. I know it's cliché, but what would Christ do? Christian Identity is not a church, organization or institution; it's a movement of God, which is currently experiencing impediments to move. But, I think perseverance will prevail if we stick to the standards of the Law. Bill wrote a pertinent piece awhile back about 'Associations and Disassociations,' which is what we have to learn how to do. We can either build bridges or burn them. But, we must be specially careful not to burn down a bridge that doesn't deserve it. Unity has been mocked by some troublemakers, but I Cor. 1:10 is speaking in terms of having the same mind and judgments of God that guide us in our way. It helps us move in the right direction. Whether we like Ryan or not, God is in control and has brought him forth to test our walk, to check our attitude or spirit, to initiate new thoughts that will bring us closer to Christ.

This (imho mistaken) trend has the potential to mire CI in yet more endless/pointless arguments, claims and counterclaims thus wasting time that could be more profitably used in preaching the Gospel.

God loves order.

It is both discussion and learning/teaching the Gospel in an orderly manner. Hopefully we can arrive at a consensus of what is true. The last 20 years or so we have been addressing these things and the false arguments eventually fall by the wayside. We have to do this for the next generation and I'm sure they will find errors in our work. The trend, as you put it, is to fulfill the command to "Be ye perfect." We complete the task before us, we don't sweep it under the rug. Our responsibility is to weigh things in the balance to prevent disorder and lawlessness. We can move towards that goal by looking at things from God's perspective and not ours. That's probably the hardest thing for us to remember and to do.

Mark