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Are we to celebrate birthdays?

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Re: Are we to celebrate birthdays?

Postby brucebohn » Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:25 pm

wmfinck wrote:Wow, and I was going to tell Bruce "Happy Birthday" tonight, because his Skype account informed me that today was his birthday, LOL.

I do not really pay much attention to my birthday. But in the past, many people here have wished me a "happy birthday", and I have not despised them, and have often expressed appreciation.

We must keep ourselves from idols.

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with wishing a brother or sister well on any day, and birthdays are often an occasion to do that.

The bottom line is this: what does Scripture encourage, and what does Scripture forbid?

We should emulate our Saviour.



But the moment we try to forbid something that Scripture does not forbid, we attempt to make ourselves as God. Instead, we must keep ourselves from idols in that respect as well, because we are not God.

Puritanism is rooted in Pharisaism.

The Scripture does not forbid wine, but it does discourage drunkenness.
The Scripture does not forbid Rock music, but it does forbid blasphemy.
The Scripture does not forbid birthday celebrations, but it does encourage brotherhood.

There are a lot of personal choices, and we are not God, so we should not rule over one another's faith.

We praise Yahweh for the fellowship which we have, whenever we have an opportunity to partake of it.


Whoa Bill, I checked my Skype acct. and you are right, it is my birthday! :lol:
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Re: Are we to celebrate birthdays?

Postby Nayto » Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:25 am

As I say, I don't make a big deal about others if they want to celebrate their birthdays. I must say though that I'm disgusted when people start having all kinds of expectations of others on their birthdays. I've never seen this kind of behaviour in any CI kindred though. I honestly think this is an area we have a happy balance in (in my opinion).

brucebohn wrote:Whoa Bill, I checked my Skype acct. and you are right, it is my birthday! :lol: (Thanks Brother)


Lol, I can completely relate to this.

Acrimonious wrote:My wife and I do not celebrate birthdays, but we are meekly gracious for any kindness toward us on those days, so as not to turn people's hearts in bitterness away from us.

Origen had this to say regarding birthdays, for an example of what early Christians thought of the events:
Origen wrote:...of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below. (Levit., Hom. VIII, in Migne P.G., XII, 495)


I'm glad we're on the same page here. Given our birthday's close proximity it's hard to miss yours and I always have it in the back of my mind to wish you, LOL. Then I realize that you don't either, hence the sarcastic wishing this year 8-)
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Re: Are we to celebrate birthdays?

Postby Kentucky » Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:53 am

Teutonic wrote:I've heard it said on numerous podcasts that birthday celebrations aren't scriptural, and that the only 'birthday' celebrations mentioned in the Bible ended with bad consequences.

My question is, are we to avoid birthdays completely, even when it comes to our children's birthdays?

The cultural phenomenon of Christmas is a good example of rationalizing the justification for observing times of the year in a society, leading to an imposition upon Christ. Like a lot of other things, the traditions of man are fused and/or confused with God's Law. Like anything else, it begs the question: is it fleshly or spiritual? Here is what I wrote about birthdays:

Nothing is as universally celebrated as birthdays among all races. It truly is a multicultural thing. But does the God of segregation regard birthday parties as innocent fun or does God hate it? Everything you need to know about the true purpose of life is written in God’s Word. So what does God say about birthdays? Birthday celebrations are only mentioned in three separate passages and, in each case, something terrible happened. Joseph interpreted a dream of the Egyptian Pharaoh who celebrated his birthday by executing his chief baker at the party (Gen. 40:1-23). When Herod’s birthday was kept, the great servant of the Lord, John the Baptist, was beheaded at the party (Mt. 14:3-11).

In the book of Job, his sons and daughters were most likely having a birthday party that didn’t have anything to do with God, which caused Job to worry that they may have sinned and indeed his children died in a wind storm (Job 1:4, 5, 6-13,18-19). The wind is God’s fury (Ezek. 13:13). Further proof that these birthday celebrations displeased God is found in Job 3, where Job cursed every aspect of the day of his birth. The loss of all his children, due to a birthday party, was a wake up call from God, that there is nothing especially good about ones date of birth.

Consider, for a moment, the lesson to be learned from these accounts. They are the only birthday parties mentioned in the entire Bible. Absolute disaster occurred each time. If something was good or positive about birthday celebrations, you would think that God would have recorded at least one other account to put birthdays in a better light. There is no such account.

For such prominent biblical characters as Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, King David, Mary, the 12 disciples and Paul, the Bible is silent on their exact dates of birth. All of God’s faithful servants, even the birth date of Jesus Christ goes unrecorded. But, some may object and say, “Didn’t the wise men bring birthday presents to the baby Jesus?” Is this what the Bible says? Absolutely not! They arrived well after His “birthday” and Mt. 2:11 refers to Jesus as a “young child” not a baby. This explains why the gifts brought to Him could not have been birthday presents. Instead, it was an ancient custom to present gifts when in the presence of a king. The wise men understood that they were in the presence of the King of Israel, the fulfilled prophetic Messiah. There is no prophecy regarding the date of birth of Jesus or a celebration of the date thereof.

http://kinsmanredeemer.com/antichristmass.htm


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Re: Are we to celebrate birthdays?

Postby Teutonic » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:22 pm

Actually Mark, it was that very same podcast, the 'Antichrist Mass,' which spawned my question. I just wanted to get some feedback from everyone else here.
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Re: Are we to celebrate birthdays?

Postby Kentucky » Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:02 pm

wmfinck wrote:The bottom line is this: what does Scripture encourage, and what does Scripture forbid?

I would say that the bottom line is to obey or disobey the Word and that it's the spirit of the Law, not the letter of the Law; the latter being the tool of the Pharisees to interpret what they thought was forbidden. The spirit of the Law goes to the heart of the principle of what we are to obey.

We should emulate our Saviour.

Amen, He is our example. "For what sort of report, if doing wrong and being beaten you will submit? But if doing good and suffering you submit, this is a benefit before Yahweh. Indeed, for this you have been called, because Christ also had suffered on your behalf, leaving behind for you an example in order that you would follow in His footsteps" I Peter 2:20-21.

But the moment we try to forbid something that Scripture does not forbid, we attempt to make ourselves as God. Instead, we must keep ourselves from idols in that respect as well, because we are not God.

The flip side of that thought is that if we try to encourage something that Scripture does not encourage, we likewise are playing God. Conversely, the pleasures of our carnal nature are much more easier to sell than the things we know are adversarial to our five senses.

Puritanism is rooted in Pharisaism.

I've heard this repeated a few times recently and I think you need to explain what you mean. There were two basic colonies in the 1600's that founded America: Plymouth Rock and Jamestown. The first was Christian in character and the latter was commercial. Some have made the analogy of these two being between the Kingdom of God vs. Babylon. To make the accusation that these Christians were rooted in Pharisaism would suggest their roots were in Babylon. If this were true, then one would have difficulty asserting that America was ever founded by the hand of God and dash many prophecies concerning this land.

The Scripture does not forbid wine, but it does discourage drunkenness.

"Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright" Prov. 23:31. This is like the sign that reads 'Don't even think about parking here'; so you can park there as long as you don't think about it lol. Conversely, Scripture does encourage sobriety: " But we being of day should be sober, putting on a breastplate of faith and love, and a helmet: an expectation of deliverance" I Thes. 5:8.

The Scripture does not forbid Rock music, but it does forbid blasphemy.

This is probably a matter of semantics, as "Rock" is not talking about pebbles and boulders, but rather the motion in the backseat of a '57 Chevy. Rock music is probably painted with a much too wide brush, sucking into it's vortex genres that really don't belong there. If it were simply a moral question, then Rock music per se belongs in the ash heap of history.

The Scripture does not forbid birthday celebrations, but it does encourage brotherhood.

"There shall not be found in thee one who purges his son or his daughter with fire, one who uses divination, who deals with omens, and augury, 11 a sorcerer employing incantation, one who has in him a divining spirit, and observer of signs, questioning the dead" Deut. 18:10 LXX. The KJV says "an observer of times." Either way, it is not difficult to qualify birth dates as traditions of observations; the principle and spirit of the Law is self evident and does paint what is forbidden with a wide brush.

There are a lot of personal choices, and we are not God, so we should not rule over one another's faith.

I wouldn't think to rule over you or anybody else in this forum. However, God gives us direction in helping a brother who is preoccupied with proclivities that have nothing to do with faith lol. I would consider anybody correcting me in my faults to be a favor (if they were right, lol). The eternal problem is always how we tell someone they are wrong; every believer thinks they know Christ and how He would judge a situation, but we don't always have the tone, inflection or attitude He had in correcting His disciples and thus resort to the righteousness of self.

We praise Yahweh for the fellowship which we have, whenever we have an opportunity to partake of it.

"And we should consider one another, in regard to stimulation of love and of good deeds, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as is a habit with some, but encouraging, and by so much more as you see the day approaching" Heb. 10:24-25. God bless.

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Re: Are we to celebrate birthdays?

Postby Kentucky » Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:06 pm

wmfinck wrote:Melissa and I just had a wonderful week with Mark Downey and his wonderful wife.

I was me. I drank a few beers each evening. I cussed a little. Mark was Mark. He doesn't drink, and if he cussed I might fall off of my chair.

On Friday's program I jested that we were "partying with the Downeys" and Mark felt that he had to qualify that, because he did not want anyone to get the wrong impression. I laughed, but we really do not party in the pop-culture sense of the word, ever.

We love and respect Mark and his wife for who they are, we had a great time all week, and I think that the feelings are mutual.

They are, but we were expecting 70 degree sunshine and not frigid blasts of wind with sand pelting us along that beach like little pin pricks. As I said in our prayer before leaving, we count it all joy.

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Re: Are we to celebrate birthdays?

Postby EzraLB » Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:03 pm

Kentucky wrote:But does the God of segregation regard birthday parties as innocent fun or does God hate it? Everything you need to know about the true purpose of life is written in God’s Word. So what does God say about birthdays? Birthday celebrations are only mentioned in three separate passages and, in each case, something terrible happened.


I find this rhetorical question about Yahweh's opinion on birthdays to be a false dichotomy: innocent fun vs. hatred. Why only these two options about what Yahweh thinks about birthdays? This is a misleading opposition--it's a form of "begging the question" where the answer being proposed is inherent in the very nature of the question.

Yahweh states He hates Esau, and it is obvious in Scripture why He hates Esau. No such pronouncement exists about birthdays, unless we presume to be able to read Yahweh's mind.

Just because certain "birthday" celebrations in the Bible had bad events associated with them doesn't necessarily mean that Yahweh is expressing his displeasure at all birthday celebrations per se. Yahweh was displeased with how Herod or Pharaoh celebrated. Obviously, most people don't celebrate birthdays by having someone else killed. And I seriously doubt that Job's daughter died in a windstorm merely because she "most likely" had a birthday party. Yahweh is not arbitrary and irrational. Pharisees are.

I don't presume to know what Yahweh's take on birthday parties is, but I find it hard to believe that He really cares one way or the other. He certainly doesn't want us to be idolators, materialists, or murderers, regardless of the occasion. We don't need to avoid birthday celebrations like the plague for fear that someone might end up dead in a windstorm or decapitated. However, if attending a birthday party makes us want to decapitate someone, we should probably not attend any more such parties.

How much of a micro-manager is Yahweh? We know the Pharisees have the presumptuous chutzpah to know, with every aspect of our lives, what all of Yahweh's unspoken rules and opinions are. However, I see nothing inherently "evil" or "good" about birthday celebrations, and I'm not convinced that Scripture instructs or even warns us in any way to simply not participate in them.

Bill has summed up how I feel about this and related issues. Quote:

"On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with wishing a brother or sister well on any day, and birthdays are often an occasion to do that...But the moment we try to forbid something that Scripture does not forbid, we attempt to make ourselves as God. Instead, we must keep ourselves from idols in that respect as well, because we are not God.

Puritanism is rooted in Pharisaism.

The Scripture does not forbid wine, but it does discourage drunkenness.
The Scripture does not forbid Rock music, but it does forbid blasphemy.
The Scripture does not forbid birthday celebrations, but it does encourage brotherhood.

There are a lot of personal choices, and we are not God, so we should not rule over one another's faith."
"No Rothschild is English. No Baruch, Morgenthau, Cohen, Lehman, Warburg, Kuhn, Kahn, Schiff, Sieff or Solomon was ever born Anglo-Saxon. And it is for this filth that you fight. It is for this filth that you murdered your Empire. It is this filth that elects, selects, your politicians." -- Ezra Pound
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Re: Are we to celebrate birthdays?

Postby Kentucky » Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:45 pm

EzraLB wrote:
Kentucky wrote:But does the God of segregation regard birthday parties as innocent fun or does God hate it? Everything you need to know about the true purpose of life is written in God’s Word. So what does God say about birthdays? Birthday celebrations are only mentioned in three separate passages and, in each case, something terrible happened.


I find this rhetorical question about Yahweh's opinion on birthdays to be a false dichotomy: innocent fun vs. hatred. Why only these two options about what Yahweh thinks about birthdays? This is a misleading opposition--it's a form of "begging the question" where the answer being proposed is inherent in the very nature of the question.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the difference between light and darkness. Begging the question is a form of teaching. Perhaps you're not in the mood to learn anything.

Yahweh states He hates Esau, and it is obvious in Scripture why He hates Esau. No such pronouncement exists about birthdays, unless we presume to be able to read Yahweh's mind.

I'm sorry 2+2 doesn't add up for you Ezra. I don't presume to be able to read anything other than the Word.

Just because certain "birthday" celebrations in the Bible had bad events associated with them doesn't necessarily mean that Yahweh is expressing his displeasure at all birthday celebrations per se. Yahweh was displeased with how Herod or Pharaoh celebrated. Obviously, most people don't celebrate birthdays by having someone else killed. And I seriously doubt that Job's daughter died in a windstorm merely because she "most likely" had a birthday party. Yahweh is not arbitrary and irrational. Pharisees are.

The Pharisees were irrational because they did not heed the obvious. What does it take for people to understand Scripture? Bolts of lightning from Heaven, a burning bush, a cake with extra frosting spelling out a personal message from God Himself... with a cherry on top?

I don't presume to know what Yahweh's take on birthday parties is, but I find it hard to believe that He really cares one way or the other. He certainly doesn't want us to be idolators, materialists, or murderers, regardless of the occasion. We don't need to avoid birthday celebrations like the plague for fear that someone might end up dead in a windstorm or decapitated. However, if attending a birthday party makes us want to decapitate someone, we should probably not attend any more such parties.

I think you might be ignoring the context of what I wrote, which is the biggest birthday hoax on the planet! The first step, of course, is to rationalize celebrating one's birth date. The second step is to rationalize celebrating the birth date of Christ, and an arbitrary one at that. I think God does care about unauthorized celebrations, because they always lead to a cause and effect that is not good. Conversely, celebrating sanctioned times of the year according to Scripture have the cause and effect of good.

How much of a micro-manager is Yahweh?

I would say that He is as much as He is a macro-manager. In fact, I would say that He is the Creator of all things created and that makes Him omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. That begs the question as to why anyone would think that He isn't.

We know the Pharisees have the presumptuous chutzpah to know, with every aspect of our lives, what all of Yahweh's unspoken rules and opinions are. However, I see nothing inherently "evil" or "good" about birthday celebrations, and I'm not convinced that Scripture instructs or even warns us in any way to simply not participate in them.

If we need one of those airplanes to spell it out in the sky, we will never be able to rightly divide the word of truth and collate and connect some of the mysteries of the Bible. We know that the modern decedents of the Pharisees have a monopoly on all of these holidays (holy days?) with a billion dollar industry selling the merchandise of Babylon. If you see nothing inherently evil about the commercialization of paganism, the deification of beasts or the innocent fun of birthday cards, gifts and party accessories, then too bad. I happen to see them all lumped together by the same nefarious adversary.

Bill has summed up how I feel about this and related issues. Quote:

"On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with wishing a brother or sister well on any day, and birthdays are often an occasion to do that...But the moment we try to forbid something that Scripture does not forbid, we attempt to make ourselves as God. Instead, we must keep ourselves from idols in that respect as well, because we are not God.

Did I hear someone just say "false dichotomy"? LOL. I received an email last December from a Pastor Ken Kemble and it's basically the same argument. He said:

Most of my friends are aware of the fact that our Lord Jesus Christ was not born on December 25, but was born at the Feast of Tabernacles in the fall.

December 25 was a pagan day of celebration, Saturnalia. Early Christians, in an attempt to wipe out the pagan celebration, decided to celebrate our Lord's birth on December 25 instead.

We think that any and all such attempts to wipe out paganism are to be commended.

We happen to like this time of year, and look forward to it each year. It is the ONLY time of year when you can go anywhere --- shops, restaurants, etc. --- and hear songs being sung about our Lord Jesus Christ. This fact absolutely thrills us, and we revel in it.

Yes, there are still a few pagan customs associated with Christmastide which remain, and every one of them should be purged from all Christian homes. But we personally can find nothing wrong with celebrating JESUS any time of the year . . . and that includes December 25.

Think about it. Has it ever seemed to you that there is something special in the air at this time of year? We believe there is a good reason why there is so much joy in the hearts of so many at this time of year. Have you ever stopped to think that if Christ were born at Tabernacles (which He was), then He would have had to have been conceived in mid to late December.

Knowing that our fleshly life begins not with birth but with conception, we know that it was truly at this time of the year when God came down and put on the body of His flesh . . . most likely at the Feast of Dedication.

In short, don't do away with the celebration, worship and praise of our Lord Jesus Christ at this, or any other, time of year. Do away with what is pagan, and what is not Christ-centered, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Think of it this way --- if we take the Lord Jesus Christ out of Christmas, all that is left is paganism . . . and then we are right back where we started.


Talk about the traditions of man and Pharisaism.

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Re: Are we to celebrate birthdays?

Postby wmfinck » Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:34 pm

Genesis chapter 11 wrote:10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood: 11 And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters. 12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah: 13 And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters. 14 And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber: 15 And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters. 16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg: 17 And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters. 18 And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu: 19 And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters. 20 And Reu lived two and thirty years, and begat Serug: 21 And Reu lived after he begat Serug two hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters. 22 And Serug lived thirty years, and begat Nahor: 23 And Serug lived after he begat Nahor two hundred years, and begat sons and daughters. 24 And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah:
25 And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters. 26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.


The numbers of years are precise, and not rounded. Guess they were keeping track of when they were born.

Just thinking out loud.... LOL
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Re: Are we to celebrate birthdays?

Postby wmfinck » Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:50 pm

Kentucky wrote:
wmfinck wrote:Puritanism is rooted in Pharisaism.


I've heard this repeated a few times recently and I think you need to explain what you mean. There were two basic colonies in the 1600's that founded America: Plymouth Rock and Jamestown. The first was Christian in character and the latter was commercial. Some have made the analogy of these two being between the Kingdom of God vs. Babylon. To make the accusation that these Christians were rooted in Pharisaism would suggest their roots were in Babylon. If this were true, then one would have difficulty asserting that America was ever founded by the hand of God and dash many prophecies concerning this land.

Mark


It is not correct to link the Pharisees of the time of Christ directly to Babylon, as we typically associate the term with the Talmud and the Jews of today. There is no historical or Scriptural information that indicates that the First century Pharisees were anywhere near as vile as those Edomite bastards who later wrote the Talmud.

First century Pharisaism should bring to mind the self-righteous hypocrisy which Christ had condemned the Pharisees, and the dogmas which bar men from things which God does not prohibit, or compel men to do things which God did not demand.

Puritanism was good in many ways, but it was bad in some ways as well. For instance, Puritans stood by while young girls were burned at the stake for relatively minor offenses. I would like to know which Scripture actually advocates that.

The spiritual successors of the Puritans were like those first century Pharisees in many ways.

Kentucky wrote:
wmfinck wrote:The Scripture does not forbid wine, but it does discourage drunkenness.


"Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright" Prov. 23:31. This is like the sign that reads 'Don't even think about parking here'; so you can park there as long as you don't think about it lol. Conversely, Scripture does encourage sobriety: " But we being of day should be sober, putting on a breastplate of faith and love, and a helmet: an expectation of deliverance" I Thes. 5:8.

Mark


Nowhere do the Greeks words translated as "sober" mean to be without wine, or any strong drink. In fact, the original Webster's dictionary meaning of Sober means to be temperate, and not to be free, of alcohol.

SO'BER, a. [L. sobrius.]
1. Temperate in the use of spiritous liquors; habitually temperate; as a sober man. Live a sober, righteous and godly life.
2. Not intoxicated or overpowered by spiritous liquors; not drunken. The sot may at times be sober.
3. Not mad or insane; not wild, visionary or heated with passion; having the regular exercise of cool dispassionate reason. There was not a sober person to be had; all was tempestuous and blustering. Not sober man would put himself in danger, for the applause of escaping without breaking his neck.
4. Regular; calm; not under the influence of passion; as sober judgment; a man in his sober senses.
5. Serious; solemn; grave; as the sober livery of autumn. What parts gay France from sober Spain? See her sober over a sampler, or gay over a jointed baby.
SO'BER, v.t. TO make sober; to cure of intoxication. There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain and drinking largely sobers us again.


http://sorabji.com/1828/words/s/sober.html

In 1 Timothy Paul exhorts that a bishop must not be given to much wine. He does not exhort that a bishop should abstain from wine.
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