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TO CREMATE OR NOT TO CREMATE?

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TO CREMATE OR NOT TO CREMATE?

Postby PILGRIM » Fri May 07, 2010 10:12 pm

Well a topic came up in the show chat tonight that seemed like a good discussion topic.

Several chatters indicated they thought that cremation is forbidden in scripture. I asked if they could provide chapter and verse to back that up.

I know the Romish church forbade cremation forever until recently, but they have always had a way of just creating their own rules so they don't stand as a source.

MarkIII said he had an article on the subject that he would post.

Would love to hear from anyone who has scriptural proof to back up what are or are not acceptable burial practices for Israelites. Is anything clearly specified anywhere in the Word (forbidden or allowed) or is the subject not dealt with clearly and definitively and we are left with superstitions or traditions of men?

If cremation is not allowed then we would have to ask what about those who have been lost in a fire, or lost at sea and nibbled/disintegrated out of existence, or those who have been in the grave so long they are nothing but dust and have long since become tree food and washed away into the surrounding environment.

Thanks for your input!
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Re: TO CREMATE OR NOT TO CREMATE?

Postby MARKIII » Fri May 07, 2010 11:43 pm

By David Cloud

The sad fact is that the practice of cremation is quickly on the rise in the so-called "Christian" nations of the West. Until recently burial prevailed almost universally as the common method for disposal of the dead in Western nations, and cremation was looked upon as something practiced only by atheists or those totally ignorant of the Bible. The turn back to cremation can be seen in direct connection with the rapidly increasing apostasy from the Word of God in those nations where Christianity is the dominant faith.

By now many are surely thinking, "How can this man be so certain cremation is wrong? Is it really important whether or not a dead body is burned or buried?" If the Bible did not speak clearly on this issue and give such clear example, it would indeed not matter. But when God has spoken, when He has shown the way, we dare not ignore His counsel for the popular thinking of modern man or modern preachers!

As proof of our contention that cremation is unchristian and unbiblical, we offer the following eight reasons. The basic outline for the following is from James Fraser's excellent book, Cremation – Is It Christian?, published by Loizeaux Brothers, Neptune, New Jersey. But let me also say that we had come to see that cremation is wrong, yea evil, long before we read Bro. Fraser's book. Our experiences as missionaries in Nepal and India and a study of God's Word had taught us this. Cremation Has A Heathen Origin & Purpose, Whereas God's People Have Always Had Practiced Burial

At the outset let me answer an objection sometimes made at this point. The objection is, "Yes, God's people in the Bible practiced burial. The example is clearly there. But are we bound to follow these examples, as they are not direct commands?" The answer is given in no uncertain terms in Rom. 15:4, "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning..." And again in I Cor. 10:11 we read, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." God is saying in these passages, Yes, you are to follow the Bible's examples as well as its direct instructions."

A Heathen Origin

Cremation as practiced today in the more technically advanced nations no longer has the physical ghastliness associated with cremations performed in the poorer parts of the world. The modern method incorporates the use of an exceedingly hot incinerator which reduces the body to ashes in a matter of minutes completely out of the view of loved ones and the public.
Not so in India, Nepal, and other parts of South Asia, the area of our missionary ministry. I am convinced that if Christians in America and Europe could stand with me beside the "holy" River Bagmati in Kathmandu, Nepal, and observe the burning of the body of a Hindu following the performance of the Hindu death rituals, they would cast aside in repulsion every thought of cremation being an acceptable Christian practice. Just five days ago I stood three or so feet from a burning corpse with a missionary pastor from Singapore and his wife who were visiting us. The head was already burnt beyond recognition and the skull split open due to internal expansion from the heat of the fire. The lower legs and feet were unscorched, as they were protruding from the pile of burning wood and stubble upon which the man's body lay. The professional Hindu burners were poking the body from time to time to keep the members in the fire and adding stubble and wood as needed.

The bones were contracting and popping; the bodily organs were frying and the juices sizzling in the intense heat. My wife, a nurse with experience in a leprosy hospital and also in an intensive care ward, stood with another friend observing the ghastly sight from a distance, unwilling to come closer. The air for a hundred yards or more was filled with the unmistakable stench of burning flesh. When the fire had burnt most of the body, the ashes and remaining members were shoved into the river. This is cremation as has been practiced by heathen religions for untold centuries, but without the sanitized, "instant fry" method adopted in technically advanced nations and sanctified by apostate Christians as an "acceptable Christian practice."
Would you treat your loved ones so? Is this an acceptable Christian practice indeed? No sir, cremation is a heathen practice. It is of heathen origin and serves heathen purposes. There is nothing Christian about cremation. We were standing that day, as I have at other times, observing cremation in the surroundings from which the practice arose – idolatrous, Christless heathenism.

God's People Have Always Practiced Burial

Following are just a few examples. I challenge you to read the Bible from cover to cover and find one occasion in which one of God's people was cremated or given anything other than a decent and proper burial (except in a few cases involving God's anger, as we shall shortly see).
Abraham was buried – "Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. And his sons Isaac and Ismael buried him in the cave of Machpelah..." (Gen. 25:8-10).

Sarah was buried – "And Sarah was an hundred and seven and twenty years old...And Sarah died in Kirjatharba...And Abraham came to mourn for Sarah, and to weep for her. And Abraham stood up from before his dead, and spake unto the sons of Heth, saying, I am a stranger and a sojourner with you: give me a possession of a burying place with you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight" (Gen. 23:1-4).
Rachel was buried – "And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath...And Jacob set a pillar upon her grave: that is the pillar of Rachel's grave unto this day" (Gen. 35:19-20).
John the Baptist was buried – "And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison...and his disciples came, and took up the body, and buried it, and went and told Jesus." (Matt. 14:10-12).

Even When Burial Was Difficult

Even in difficult circumstances God's people in olden days practiced burial. For example, Joseph's body was kept for over 400 years in Egypt and then carried through the 40 years of wilderness wanderings before being buried in Palestine, the promised land.

"And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence." (Gen. 50:24-25).
"And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you." (Ex. 13:19).

How much simpler it would have been for the Israelites to have cremated Joseph, then carried his ashes with them in a tiny container! But this they refused to do. Joseph, a follower of the one true God, a man who looked forward to the bodily resurrection, was given an honorable burial, as was every man of God in the Bible.

Burial Looks Forward To Resurrection

The reason God's people have always been careful to practice burial is not difficult to understand. We believe in a bodily resurrection. Yes, the buried body will decompose in time. Yes, there are occasions in which Christians die in ways which render burial impossible – in the sinking of ships, in house fires, etc. But when at all possible we bury. Why the trouble? Because it is our certain hope that the same individual will be raised in the same body, only changed.
The physical body is called the seed for the resurrection body. When planted, a seed decomposed, and the new plant comes forth. The Bible uses this to illustrate resurrection:
When we bury a Christian loved one, we are planting the seed for the resurrection body! It is a powerful testimony of our unwavering faith in God's Word regarding the promise of the bodily resurrection.
Contrast heathenism. They have no such knowledge or hope. The Hindus and Buddhists, for example, believe in a human soul which is distinct from the body. But they do not believe that the soul, once departed from the body at death, will be resurrected in any relation whatsoever to the first body. Rather they believe the soul will be reincarnated in another entirely unrelated body, or into a non-physical sphere of existence.
"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me." (Job 19:25-27).
God's people have always buried their dead with this magnificent hope burning in their hearts – "We will see that brother or sister again in that same body, only changed, glorified!" Hallelujah! Only through the death and shed blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ can we have this certain hope. He has taken upon Himself on the cross the punishment for our sins, carried our sins into the grave, and rose again in eternal triumph three days later. When an individual thoroughly acknowledges his sinfulness before God, repents (changes his mind about living a sinful, self-willed life), and receives Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and saviour, the sin debt becomes paid, and eternal life and glory is promised from God the Father. Part of our glorious heritage in Christ is the resurrection body.

Cremation Is A Sign Of God's Curse

Throughout the Bible the destruction of a human body or of an object by fire is used as a sign of divine wrath. Consider with me some examples:

The example of Sodom and Gomorrah – "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven" (Gen. 19:24). "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly" (II Pet. 2:6).

The example of Nadab and Abihu – "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD" (Lev. 10:1-2).

The example of the men who rebelled with Korah – "And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense" (Num. 16:35).

The example of the unsaved cast into the lake of fire for eternal punishment – "And whatsoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15).

The Christian's Body Belongs To God: It Is Not Ours To Destroy By Fire or Any Other Means
"What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (I Cor. 6:19-20). "For whether we live, we live unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's" (Rom. 14:8).

God Has Plainly Called Cremation Wickedness

"Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime" (Amos 2:1).


A Worthy Note by MarkIII: When your bones are burned completely in those high temp furnaces, your DNA is gone. This has been proven in Forensic Science, thats why DNA is so critical to the homicide investigators. Your bones aren't completely destroyed in house fires or at sea though. Even a rotten tomato in the ground comes back to life the following season.
The return to GODS law for the White European Caucasian Race means no more wars killing each other, no more miscegenation, no more usury, no more multi-racialism, no more abortions, no more poison food & water. (MARKIII) Praise Yahweh.
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Re: TO CREMATE OR NOT TO CREMATE?

Postby matthewott » Sat May 08, 2010 3:43 pm

Excellent find MARKIII. It looks like a judeao-christian can get something right after all!
For the Word of Yahweh is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb. 4:12
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Re: TO CREMATE OR NOT TO CREMATE?

Postby wmfinck » Tue May 18, 2010 12:49 pm

I do not think that it matters. Bodies buried for centuries turn to dust - bones and all - just as well as those which are cremated. Will those people be resurrected? Of course! It is only in soils of a particular composition, or in extremely dry climates, that biological remains endure for long periods.

Bear in mind that, concerning the Christ, all of the customs and habits of the people of Judah/Judaea, developed over centuries, converged so that His death and resurrection would occur exactly as He had the prophets write centuries before it happened.

Yet our bodies are mere vessels for our spirits. The Christian faith is that Yahweh shall restore us to a physical world, and an ideal form of what we have experienced here. I see taking care of my body like I see taking care of my car. Good maintenance provides a more pleasurable, or at least more tolerable, driving experience. But when the car is ready for the junk heap, I have no care what becomes of it thereafter.

How many martyrs, burned at the stake by the papists, will NOT be resurrected? Did the devil therefore foil the plans of Yahweh? May it not be!
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Re: TO CREMATE OR NOT TO CREMATE?

Postby matthewott » Tue May 18, 2010 1:21 pm

While the argument against cremation is good, I cannot refute the argument of "what does it matter?" 8-) . I can see where a thousand years of decomposition would reduce these bodies to less than what remains after being blast-furnaced! I can also see that the practice of carefully burying bodies in order to "save them for the resurrection" can be construed as an act of mistrust of Yahweh on our part.
For the Word of Yahweh is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb. 4:12
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Re: TO CREMATE OR NOT TO CREMATE?

Postby JamesTheJust » Tue May 18, 2010 11:34 pm

I hope those of my immediate clan heed my advice and take my dead and decaying body to the desert and dump it there; using the money they've saved to help our kinspeople. A body is a vessel. YHWH will create far better ones for us and our eternal spirits will inhabit them. Long for the day!
Ye chosen seed of Israel's race, ye ransomed from the fall, hail him who saves you by his grace, and crown him Lord of all. Hail him who saves you by his grace, and crown him Lord of all.
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Re: TO CREMATE OR NOT TO CREMATE?

Postby PastorVisser » Tue May 25, 2010 12:06 pm

If you think about it, Yahweh "cremated" quite a few folks when He reined fire upon Sodom and Gomorrah.

:lol:
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Re: TO CREMATE OR NOT TO CREMATE?

Postby Steve » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:44 am

Genesis 3:17-19: And unto Adam, He said....."For dust thou art; and unto dust thou shalt return"

The atoms and molecules that make up our bodies, are constantly being replaced.
If you live another seven years, the body you now have will NOT be resurrected!

I kinda liked his remark about the "unmistakable stench of burning flesh".
Shades of the Holohoax!.....where did he get that gem?....from Simon Wiesenthal?.....the Eely Weasel?
I experienced the "unmistakable stench of burning flesh" last weekend, at my friend's Bar-B-Que.
A burning human smells the same as a burning cow, a burning pig, or any other mammal.

Bon Apetite!
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Re: TO CREMATE OR NOT TO CREMATE?

Postby TheAryanPathtoHELL » Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:56 am

wmfinck wrote:
How many martyrs, burned at the stake by the papists, will NOT be resurrected? Did the devil therefore foil the plans of Yahweh? May it not be!



Good point about the Martyrs. Does the Jew just have to burn our bodies to prevent the resurrection? NO.
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Re: TO CREMATE OR NOT TO CREMATE?

Postby Steve » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:25 am

David Cloud said:

" The turn back to cremation can be seen in direct connection with the rapidly increasing apostasy from the Word of God"

That's right....and so can the price of avocados, baseball caps, and flea powder!

"By now many are surely thinking, "How can this man be so certain cremation is wrong?""

You took the words right out of my keyboard!

"If the Bible did not speak clearly on this issue and give such clear example, it would indeed not matter. But when God has spoken, when He has shown the way, we dare not ignore His counsel for the popular thinking of modern man or modern preachers!"

That's right, David! So where are the Bible verses in which God speaks clearly on the matter?

"As proof of our contention that cremation is unchristian and unbiblical, we offer the following eight reasons"

We don't want "reasons", we want Bible verses!

"But let me also say that we had come to see that cremation is wrong, yea evil, long before we read Bro. Fraser's book"

How came ye about this revelation?

"Our experiences as missionaries in Nepal and India and a study of God's Word had taught us this"

We don't care about Nepal and India; let's just stick with God's word!

"Cremation Has A Heathen Origin & Purpose"

So does burial......not to mention tortillas, and chop-sticks!

"Whereas God's People Have Always Had Practiced Burial"

So have untold billions of "Heathen"!

"At the outset let me answer an objection sometimes made at this point. The objection is, "Yes, God's people in the Bible practiced burial. The example is clearly there. But are we bound to follow these examples, as they are not direct commands?"

OK, David, now is your golden opportunity to drive your "proofs" home.

"The answer is given in no uncertain terms in Rom. 15:4, "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning..." And again in I Cor. 10:11 we read, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come"

So, what are you trying to say, David?
Should we give our clothes to the Goodwill, and wear robes and sandals?
Should we rip all the water pipes out of or houses, and dig a well in the back yard?
Should we turn of our lights, and use candles?
Should we throw our toilet in a dumpster, and put a "paddle on our weapon"?
How far do you suggest we go with your "learning", and "admonition"?

Methinks you "strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel", David!
As a matter of fact, I'm not gonna bother with the rest of the article. except to say that it is a bunch of twaddle, Judeoxtian superstition, and not the Word of God, but "the traditions of men"!
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