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Can a guerilla/insurgent force defeat a conventional army?

Just keep it lawful.

Re: Can a guerilla/insurgent force defeat a conventional arm

Postby Fenwick » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:05 pm

Kentucky wrote:his was the beginning of my hatred towards the government and the awakening wrath of a Saxon.

I thought you were Irish? :mrgreen:



I once had a guy call me a communist and tell me we should be put in concentration camps, because I didn't think it was a great idea for me to join the army and waste a few years shooting at arabs in a desert somewhere. Sometimes it's as important to know when not to fight as it is when to fight.
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Re: Can a guerilla/insurgent force defeat a conventional arm

Postby Kentucky » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:24 pm

Fenwick wrote:
Kentucky wrote:his was the beginning of my hatred towards the government and the awakening wrath of a Saxon.

I thought you were Irish? :mrgreen:

The Downey clan is said to have hailed from Hebridean Islands and migrated to the Emerald Isle. The Scottish Declaration of Independence mentions the Scots as Sycthian and therefore Saxon. Mom's side is German.

Sometimes it's as important to know when not to fight as it is when to fight.

Exactly.

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Re: Can a guerilla/insurgent force defeat a conventional arm

Postby Nayto » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:08 pm

I'd love to hear the full story in front of a hearth with a warm drink some day :mrgreen:
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Re: Can a guerilla/insurgent force defeat a conventional arm

Postby EendragMaakMag » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:19 pm

I'd say that a guerrilla/insurgent force can definitely defeat a conventional army. The Anglo-Boer war is an excellent example.
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Re: Can a guerilla/insurgent force defeat a conventional arm

Postby Nayto » Wed May 28, 2014 2:14 pm

EendragMaakMag wrote:I'd say that a guerrilla/insurgent force can definitely defeat a conventional army. The Anglo-Boer war is an excellent example.


Except the British put the Boer women and children in concentration camps which in effect caused the boers not to actually "win" the war.

Probably a good lesson to learn for hypothetical future prospective incursions.

It was fun reading Christiaan de Wet's book "3 Years War" where a few boers would route the British at odds of 10 to 1, LOL.
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Re: Can a guerilla/insurgent force defeat a conventional arm

Postby SwordBrethren » Wed May 28, 2014 5:17 pm

Nayto wrote:
EendragMaakMag wrote:I'd say that a guerrilla/insurgent force can definitely defeat a conventional army. The Anglo-Boer war is an excellent example.


Except the British put the Boer women and children in concentration camps which in effect caused the boers not to actually "win" the war.

Probably a good lesson to learn for hypothetical future prospective incursions.

It was fun reading Christiaan de Wet's book "3 Years War" where a few boers would route the British at odds of 10 to 1, LOL.



The Boers were unwilling to retaliate against the British civilians.

They were also unwilling to take the war to the British Isles. I would have found the Boer Commandos with fluent English skills and smuggled them into the UK with the idea being to set off bombs in London, assassinate the royal family, launch a coordinate assault with a few dozen men on the House of Lords and House of Commons and cripple the government, etc.

I would have also dispatched commandos into Rhodesia, the Cape, and Natal to kill British civilians. I would have also butchered all British POWs and sent their mutilated remains back to British lines to demoralize their comrades since the British had instituted a policy of executing all captured Boers as "traitors" and Kitchener declared that any Brit who took a Boer prisoner would have his own rations cut by 50% to feed the Boer, and if he took two Boer prisoners his rations were cut by 75% to feed the two prisoners.

I would have put a bounty on the head of Kitchener and I would have put bounties, paid in gold, on the heads of all of the members of the royal family, the MP, any PM from the ruling party, and all of the cabinet members. Two thousand pounds of gold to whoever kills a royal, circulate it across Europe.

If I had been in charge of the Boer war effort the war would not have ended just because the women and children were put into concentration camps, the war would have ended after a few thousand elites in Britain were dead and a few dozen bombs had gone off in London and the new British government was begging for mercy and begging for an end to the war.


My take on a war is that you fight to win and you observe conventions and give as much quarter as the enemy. If the enemy puts your women and children into camps to die, then you are free to borrow a page from Genghis Khan and level his homeland and leave mountains of skulls in the wake of your advancing forces.

If I had been in charge of the Boer war effort I would probably have obtained a British surrender or at least a very favorable negotiated peace. I imagine they would have offered to surrender after the assassination of the entire royal family, the assassination of most of the House of Lords, the assassination of most of the House of Commons, the assassination of the Prime Minister and his cabinet, and several thousand Londoners being killed in bombing attacks, as well as tens of thousands of British civilians being killed throughout South Africa and Rhodesia.
Revelation 18:
Und ich hörte eine andere Stimme vom Himmel, die sprach: Gehet aus von ihr, mein Volk, daß ihr nicht teilhaftig werdet ihrer Sünden, auf daß ihr nicht empfanget etwas von ihren Plagen!

Denn ihre Sünden reichen bis in den Himmel, und Gott denkt an ihren Frevel.


Judentum ist Verbrechertum!

Heute ist Deutschland die größte Weltmacht! - Der Führer 30 Januar 1940
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Re: Can a guerilla/insurgent force defeat a conventional arm

Postby SwordBrethren » Wed May 28, 2014 5:28 pm

EendragMaakMag wrote:I'd say that a guerrilla/insurgent force can definitely defeat a conventional army. The Anglo-Boer war is an excellent example.



The First Anglo-Boer war is a better example of a non-conventional/reserve/militia force defeating a conventional force in a quick war. However, this was an odd example in history and it was mostly due to the British not having the stomach for a fight beyond that decisive battle of Majuba.
Revelation 18:
Und ich hörte eine andere Stimme vom Himmel, die sprach: Gehet aus von ihr, mein Volk, daß ihr nicht teilhaftig werdet ihrer Sünden, auf daß ihr nicht empfanget etwas von ihren Plagen!

Denn ihre Sünden reichen bis in den Himmel, und Gott denkt an ihren Frevel.


Judentum ist Verbrechertum!

Heute ist Deutschland die größte Weltmacht! - Der Führer 30 Januar 1940
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Re: Can a guerilla/insurgent force defeat a conventional arm

Postby Nayto » Thu May 29, 2014 4:14 pm

I suppose the boers were too soft hearted for all that. The side of right does seem to often make the mistake of fighting the gentleman's war. On the other side the jews have no problem throwing White men's lives away.

The jews in the boer army used to try and bribe to get better/safer cover during battles :lol:
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Re: Can a guerilla/insurgent force defeat a conventional arm

Postby EendragMaakMag » Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:03 am

@Nayto
Yes they didn't win the war, but they did strike a blow so hard that the empire would decline to what it is today. Although, considering that an entire generation was wiped out in the most inhumane way possible, they should have kept fighting until they wiped them out. Then again, if your wife and daughters were raped and then starved to death in tents located in some of the climatically extreme places in SA, your house, your farm, in essence your entire livelihood and all your belongings were burnt to ashes, what would be the point of fighting? It just wasn't worth it. Also, you're absolutely right - I've ALWAYS said that the Boer people's greatest weakness(and whites in general) is that they are too softhearted. But they didn't like the war and repeatedly tried to avoid the war until they had no choice. Which it seems is another weakness - They were always fighting defensively and almost never pursued the enemy beyond their borders. Yes I read that about the jews in the Boer army too. But rather that than being led by jews :roll:

@SwordBrethren
You're absolutely right. What I should have said was: With the proper mindset, guerrilla/insurgency tactics can definitely defeat a conventional force. What I was trying to point out is that even though the Boers didn't win the war, their tactics were definitely able to break the brits if they had made better choices. Perhaps a better example would be the SADF during the Border/Angolan war(which was basically our Vietnam and Middle east conflict). Although, keep in mind that in this instance the SADF were the conventional force and SWAPO/Mkontho we siswe(MK)/APLA and the other terrorist factions were the guerrilla force. At first, they tried beating the commies with a conventional approach. They weren't very successful and even the generals of that time admit that. However, once they went back to what we know(in other words, being BETTER guerrillas) with units like 32 Battalion and most importantly Koevoet(both being among the most effective military/para-military units in modern warfare history), they totally annihilated the enemy. All because of a change in mindset aligned with guerrilla tactics. And by mindset I mean they killed everything that resembled an enemy or aided the enemy in any way.
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Re: Can a guerilla/insurgent force defeat a conventional arm

Postby SwordBrethren » Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:17 pm

EendragMaakMag wrote:@Nayto
Yes they didn't win the war, but they did strike a blow so hard that the empire would decline to what it is today. Although, considering that an entire generation was wiped out in the most inhumane way possible, they should have kept fighting until they wiped them out. Then again, if your wife and daughters were raped and then starved to death in tents located in some of the climatically extreme places in SA, your house, your farm, in essence your entire livelihood and all your belongings were burnt to ashes, what would be the point of fighting? It just wasn't worth it. Also, you're absolutely right - I've ALWAYS said that the Boer people's greatest weakness(and whites in general) is that they are too softhearted. But they didn't like the war and repeatedly tried to avoid the war until they had no choice. Which it seems is another weakness - They were always fighting defensively and almost never pursued the enemy beyond their borders. Yes I read that about the jews in the Boer army too. But rather that than being led by jews :roll:

@SwordBrethren
You're absolutely right. What I should have said was: With the proper mindset, guerrilla/insurgency tactics can definitely defeat a conventional force. What I was trying to point out is that even though the Boers didn't win the war, their tactics were definitely able to break the brits if they had made better choices. Perhaps a better example would be the SADF during the Border/Angolan war(which was basically our Vietnam and Middle east conflict). Although, keep in mind that in this instance the SADF were the conventional force and SWAPO/Mkontho we siswe(MK)/APLA and the other terrorist factions were the guerrilla force. At first, they tried beating the commies with a conventional approach. They weren't very successful and even the generals of that time admit that. However, once they went back to what we know(in other words, being BETTER guerrillas) with units like 32 Battalion and most importantly Koevoet(both being among the most effective military/para-military units in modern warfare history), they totally annihilated the enemy. All because of a change in mindset aligned with guerrilla tactics. And by mindset I mean they killed everything that resembled an enemy or aided the enemy in any way.




I have read about a dozen books on the wars in Rhodesia, Southwest Africa, and Angola, and combining what I took away from those books with what I have read about Vietnam and other insurgencies, I believe a key to putting down any guerilla movement is cooperation from the locals and the use of "pseudo-guerilla" forces to repeatedly ambush genuine guerillas. Pseudo-guerillas function best when they are former guerillas who have switched sides and are fighting for you, but you can also use White men who apply black paint to look black from a distance. The cooperation from the locals comes in a number of forms, mainly denying recruits and supplies to the guerillas. Beyond that, you will need to arm and organize the locals into village defense militias so that they are armed and ready to stop the guerillas from simply taking recruits and/or supplies. The use of pseudo-guerillas will keep the real/genuine guerillas on their toes at all times, they will never be sure if the group of men approaching them, men who appear to be guerillas, are genuine comrades about to embrace them or pseudo-guerillas about to open fire.

The Portuguese never had 500,000 men to detail a platoon sized garrison to every small village in Angola and the USA never had 3,000,000 men to garrison every village in South Vietnam, thus preparing/training/arming the locals to defend their own villages is crucial.

Most guerilla movements gain recruits via force, they threaten to destroy the village unless a certain number of young men are provided for fighting or to at least help carry/haul supplies. A huge percentage of the guerillas in Southwest Africa and Angola did not want to be there, many of them were coerced with threats against themselves, threats against their families, and many had been tricked by the KGB and then dropped into Angola.

East German advisers serving with MPLA in Angola found that they had no stomach for fighting and that they would break ranks and run as soon as they began to receive incoming shells or mortar rounds. One East German officer also remarked that they were savages who were more interested in getting drunk and raping women than in fighting the South Africans and that it was virtually impossible to find guerillas willing to carry heavy equipment such as the belt-fed machine guns, the tripod, the mortar, the mortar baseplate, and that they would drop the equipment and scatter as soon as they began to receive South African indirect/artillery fire. If I recall properly one East German officer wrote that the Angolan blacks were animals unfit to be involved in the spread of communism.
Revelation 18:
Und ich hörte eine andere Stimme vom Himmel, die sprach: Gehet aus von ihr, mein Volk, daß ihr nicht teilhaftig werdet ihrer Sünden, auf daß ihr nicht empfanget etwas von ihren Plagen!

Denn ihre Sünden reichen bis in den Himmel, und Gott denkt an ihren Frevel.


Judentum ist Verbrechertum!

Heute ist Deutschland die größte Weltmacht! - Der Führer 30 Januar 1940
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