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Martial Arts and unarmed self-defence

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Re: Martial Arts and unarmed self-defence

Postby Gallowglass » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:25 pm

Bench 600 lbs and squat 1000lbs ? that would be a powerlifter, not a fighter. In kilograms is 272 kg bench and 453kg squat, that's a lot. If you're a home gym user, like me, I have a power rack with pullup bar, a barbell, some dumbells and about 200lbs in plates. I'd never get those kinds of weights here, to hit those limits I need to go the gym and pay for one day and so forth, but at the moment I'm fine (well, for deadlift you can lift the max weight ever). I don't have many professional fighting skills, except some karate, some wrestling and self- defense classes and that's about it. I admit that I would like to get more knowledge and abilities in this, there aren't good martial arts schools here, a lot of kick boxing ones and some asian ones (like taekwondo, totally useless), which I don't like, but I'll search better for one. I was picked in school more than one time and I can remember throwing to the floor a guy 4 years older, taller and heavier than me, I dont know how I did it but was just in that moment of defense, I never backed down. If I'd have to choose a complete fighter in technique, speed, strenght and weight, that one would be Fedor Emelianenko, though he's retired now.

I tend to agree with Nico here.
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Re: Martial Arts and unarmed self-defence

Postby Nayto » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:11 am

Nico's post is exactly why I added experience. There is a simple epistemological principle which says, "You can't know what you don't know you don't know." The thing about experience is that it largely comes down to how many full contact fights you've had. I've fought strong opponents, weak opponents, received knockouts, delivered a knockout and fought multiple opponents (2 - 3) at bars. Drilling technique on a mat is great, but actually applying what you have learned or getting beaten to hell adds a whole new dimension.

In those situations strength makes a massive difference. The funny thing about strength is that people who haven't trained strength don't understand what it does to you. Unless you are very heavy and or have too much fat, strength has no downside. There are no cons to strength; it's pure pros.

Muscle also creates armour around your body which means you can take way more punishment. Just try to build lean muscle with myofribril hypertrophy as opposed to bulk/water muscle with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Although sometimes you need to bulk and then "fill" it with lean muscle. Whole other topic though, but the point is that weight and muscle do not necessarily mean strength.

Unless one is going to argue that strength is somehow detrimental to one's fighting ability, there is nothing to lose anyway. It can only benefit and coupled with leading a healthy, food law abiding lifestyle, it will only serve to make one feel good and be spiritually healthy as well.
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Re: Martial Arts and unarmed self-defence

Postby SwordBrethren » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:44 pm

Nayto wrote:Nico's post is exactly why I added experience. There is a simple epistemological principle which says, "You can't know what you don't know you don't know." The thing about experience is that it largely comes down to how many full contact fights you've had. I've fought strong opponents, weak opponents, received knockouts, delivered a knockout and fought multiple opponents (2 - 3) at bars. Drilling technique on a mat is great, but actually applying what you have learned or getting beaten to hell adds a whole new dimension.

In those situations strength makes a massive difference. The funny thing about strength is that people who haven't trained strength don't understand what it does to you. Unless you are very heavy and or have too much fat, strength has no downside. There are no cons to strength; it's pure pros.

Muscle also creates armour around your body which means you can take way more punishment. Just try to build lean muscle with myofribril hypertrophy as opposed to bulk/water muscle with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Although sometimes you need to bulk and then "fill" it with lean muscle. Whole other topic though, but the point is that weight and muscle do not necessarily mean strength.

Unless one is going to argue that strength is somehow detrimental to one's fighting ability, there is nothing to lose anyway. It can only benefit and coupled with leading a healthy, food law abiding lifestyle, it will only serve to make one feel good and be spiritually healthy as well.




1- I am not talking theory or simply about drilling, I have competed, and competition involves the other person going all the way to win, it's not just a friendly session of sparring on the mat with friends for the sake of improving skills and learning, it is all the way.


2- Strength is great, but if you take time away from technique and technical training to focus on strength, you're going to miss out. I know some guys who only train on the mats twice a week because they spend two or three days per week in the gym lifting weights, and they get tossed around and submitted by smaller guys who are training technique on the mats 6-12 times per week.



3- Bar fighting doesn't count for much. I would expect a boxer/kick-boxer with 2-3 years of training to hold his own in a bar fight, I would expect a BJJ blue belt or above to dominate in a bar fight, a person who wrestled in high school and college [8+ years of wrestling experience] to hold his own in a bar fight. A person with years of training in either boxing, wrestling, or BJJ, against some bulky/beefy drunk in a bar, it is like taking candy from a baby, at least it should be. The real measure is competition, either within the combat art, or in MMA.


Talk to Bocksar, he shares my view, he has done extensive boxing and minimal [but some] grappling.

I have done considerably more grappling than he has, but no boxing. We both believe that BJJ is the best one on one self defense system, and that grappling beats boxing. But, with that in mind, a boxer/wrestler is a very deadly combo and can often hold his own against a grappler or win against a grappler, but somebody who is simply a straight up stand-up boxer, with no take-down defense, no ground game, no foundation in wrestling, will almost always lose to a grappler.

Look at the first 5 UFC fights, they took champion boxers, who only knew boxing, and put them up against champion grapplers who only knew grappling, and with very few exceptions, all of the boxers lost and all of the grapplers won.


Gerard Gordeau, Dutch kick-boxer, he beat other boxers in the UFC, but he lost both of his matches against grapplers, even though he eye-gouged one [he was heel hooked]. He was unable to stop either grappler from taking the fight to the ground and submitting him.

A boxer without a take-down defense, against a competent grappler, is facing probably a 95% chance of being taken down and submitted on the ground. Now if you take that same boxer and he has 4-5 years of experience in wrestling, he can stuff take-down attempts, he can keep the fight standing, and he can do a lot better.

Most boxers do not get into clinches, while clinches are very common in MMA or street fights. In boxing if you clinch with your opponent the ref separates the two of you, but that won't happen in MMA or a street fight, there's no ref to separate people when they clinch. Boxers, unless they are Muay Thai, don't train to clinch fight.


Bocksar and I both agree, that the foundation for a self-defense system should be BJJ, perhaps combined with freestyle wrestling or Greco-Roman wrestling, followed by [pick one] traditional boxing, kick-boxing, or Muay Thai.


The old martial arts, Karate, Kung Fu, Taekwondo, most of those have been thoroughly discredited by MMA and various BJJ/grapplers challenges over the years. In Taekwondo there are perhaps two or three kicks that you might take away from the art that are potentially useful and could possibly be incorporated into a self-defense system, but for the most part the art is dependent on kicks and if somebody is closer than three feet, most TKD kicks are not going to work.

You cannot roundhouse somebody who is clinched with you, but if a few TKD kicks can still be nasty, if you can land them, you might break a rib on the other guy, but most of those kicks are so high that you could wind up off-balance and flat on your back as they come down on top of you or shoot in for a take-down after you miss your kick. TKD is one of those things where if you go for a head kick on a moving/advancing opponent you might have a 2% chance of landing it and knocking the other guy clean out, but if you miss or if you just daze him or cause him pain [without incapacitating him] he is going to take you down in the aftermath of the failed kick.



Renzo Gracie weighing in at 180 lbs, 5'11 tall vs the boxing champion James Warring who weighed in at 218 pounds and is 6'3 tall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXY5Srb5B6U


Renzo Gracie won by submission.

Warring's professional boxing record is fairly impressive, 18 wins and 4 losses.
Revelation 18:
Und ich hörte eine andere Stimme vom Himmel, die sprach: Gehet aus von ihr, mein Volk, daß ihr nicht teilhaftig werdet ihrer Sünden, auf daß ihr nicht empfanget etwas von ihren Plagen!

Denn ihre Sünden reichen bis in den Himmel, und Gott denkt an ihren Frevel.


Judentum ist Verbrechertum!

Heute ist Deutschland die größte Weltmacht! - Der Führer 30 Januar 1940
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Re: Martial Arts and unarmed self-defence

Postby Nayto » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:39 am

SwordBrethren wrote:2- Strength is great, but if you take time away from technique and technical training to focus on strength, you're going to miss out.


Yes, agreed. They're all synergistic really; the whole lacks significantly when one of them is neglected.

SwordBrethren wrote:Bar fighting doesn't count for much.


Single opponent yes, like taking candy from a baby. Multiple opponents is a different story though, especially when they come out of nowhere.

Gracie is obviously an exceptional fighter. Speaking of which, I found a school lead by some guy who trained with Gracie. I need to go have a look.
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Re: Martial Arts and unarmed self-defence

Postby Filidh » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:02 am

Here's a pdf of the USMC Martial Arts Manual if anyone's interested:
http://www.2shared.com/document/za4WWLzB/
real name's trevor :-)
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Re: Martial Arts and unarmed self-defence

Postby SwordBrethren » Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:19 pm

Filidh wrote:Here's a pdf of the USMC Martial Arts Manual if anyone's interested:
http://www.2shared.com/document/za4WWLzB/



Manuals can be nice to have and to read, and I will check that out, but I caution people, don't think you can just read a manual and be set to go.

Marine Corps Martial Arts Program [MCMAP] is basically a fusion of some elements of BJJ, some Judo, some wrestling, and some boxing.

I don't put much stock in the USMC Martial Arts, you can earn a black belt in their system with around 125 hours of training.


I spent about 300+ hours of training, sparring, and drilling, to earn a blue belt [the first belt promotion] in BJJ. If you spend 125 hours in BJJ you'll basically be a mid-level white belt. Spending 300 hours in the Marine Corps system would earn you a maximum level black belt.


A friend of mine, a Marine, declared, "they teach us just enough to get into trouble, but not enough to get out of trouble."


For what the Marines need to do, I don't blame the Corps for only giving the recruits a basic 25 hours of training in HTH. Any spare time a Marine has is better spent on the rifle range, in a shoot-house, or doing fire-team/squad maneuvers/drills. They're much more likely to have to kill an enemy with a rifle than to have to go hand to hand in a grappling/boxing match with an enemy.



The people in the military who get into competitions and who are capable fighters, typically spend a lot of their own time training with people on base at a club or off-base at a gym, or they already have a strong martial arts background. Somebody who has 4-6 years of wrestling or 5 years of boxing or 4 years of BJJ, who goes into the military, shouldn't have any problem submitting or KOing a drill instructor if the instructor challenges all of the recruits and wants to know if anybody thinks he has what it takes to take him on.

The people in the military who are truly dangerous and skilled in HTH, the ones who do well at tournaments, are the guys who already came with the skills/experience or who spent years of their free-time at the clubs, they're the guys who often run the clubs. It is somewhat common to find Greco-Roman wrestling clubs and grappling clubs on or near military bases. A lot of guys in the Navy, if they're on an aircraft carrier, have access to clubs that train on the hangar deck, they just roll out the mats, hold class, and then spar, keep in mind that carriers are basically small cities and most have at least 4,000 to 6,000 sailors and marines aboard, when you have that many military people on one ship, you're bound to come across at least a few dozen guys who wrestled in high school, some amateur boxers, a few grapplers, some Judo guys, maybe even a few MMA fighters or some people who did some pro-fighting.



But generally I would advise people not to go to the military, or to military manuals, to learn martial arts. Keep in mind that the military regularly brings in people such as the Gracies to hold seminars and that the Gracies helped develop some parts of the MCMAP system. I'd go right to the source.


I love grappling and will probably stick with it for the rest of my life. I also want to branch out and get into some sort of boxing, either traditional/orthodox American, some sort of kick-boxing [maybe Savate], or Muay-Thai, but first I might benefit from a few hundred more grappling classes and a few more tournaments/competitions. When I start bringing home some serious medals, I'll know my foundation is solid and I'm ready to start branching out.



If somebody wants to fight MMA my advice would be-

Step 1- learn BJJ to at least a blue/purple belt level, compete in at least 5-10 grappling tournaments to see how you fare against other grapplers who know approximately what you know. Around purple belt level start to develop your own style, have a favorite position and several favorite submissions. Maybe you're a guy who likes the guard so you get really good at a triangle choke and if they defend the triangle choke you get really good at transitioning right into an arm-bar.

Step 2- learn boxing or kick-boxing at least for several years.

Step 3- add something else in, perhaps Judo, perhaps Greco-Roman wrestling, perhaps Russian Sambo.



If you already have 4-8 years of wrestling at the high school and college level as a foundation then you have a great advantage, especially in terms of conditioning and overall endurance/stamina. Generally you can take somebody who has 4-8 years of wrestling, work them to a mid blue belt level in BJJ, and they're ready for amateur cage fighting, if they get a year or two of boxing along the way, all the better.
Revelation 18:
Und ich hörte eine andere Stimme vom Himmel, die sprach: Gehet aus von ihr, mein Volk, daß ihr nicht teilhaftig werdet ihrer Sünden, auf daß ihr nicht empfanget etwas von ihren Plagen!

Denn ihre Sünden reichen bis in den Himmel, und Gott denkt an ihren Frevel.


Judentum ist Verbrechertum!

Heute ist Deutschland die größte Weltmacht! - Der Führer 30 Januar 1940
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Re: Martial Arts and unarmed self-defence

Postby brucebohn » Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:57 pm

"NEVER OFFEND A MAN YOU DO NOT INTEND TO FIGHT,
NEVER FIGHT A MAN YOU DO NOT INTEND TO KILL"!!
WHATEVER "TOOL" IS AT HAND.........................
"Do you not know that with those running in a race,while all run,
but one takes the prize? In that manner you run, in order that you shall obtain."
1Cor. 9:24
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Re: Martial Arts and unarmed self-defence

Postby NicoChristian » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:16 pm

Another problem with standardizing combat is not taking into account the differences between people as well. It's all fair and well to say start off with such and such art then branch off into something else because that worked for me. What works for one doesn't work for another. Advising a short stocky man to kick-box may not work out for him as his limbs are rather short for kick-boxing and he may be better suited to grappling. A tall slim man may not be suited to grappling and better at striking. I've cross trained in Jui Jitsu, Judo, grappling, etc, due to my height, size and technique I'm better at striking, keeping people away and I use Thai clinching to avoid going to the ground and continue striking with my elbows and knees. The art doesn't make the person, the person makes the art. I've never witnessed two fighters from the same system with identical styles. None of the kick-boxers I've ever fought, fought like myself, they all had their own style.

You can tell somebody to study such and such art, then it won't suit them and they'll be unable to use it effectively. I don't fear the art, I fear the person behind the art. A later trend in MMA was more strikers winning, they weren't letting the grapplers get in close and most fights were being decided on their feet. I remember Mirko Krokop ending most of his fights with head kicks. In the early years of MMA, admittedly grappling appeared to dominate, but this trend changed in more recent years. Definitely when I was really into combat strikers were dominating MMA.

One problem I have with grappling is that for street defence it can appear great, but in a street fight the last place you want to be is on the concrete rolling around. Grappling also uses a lot of energy and it's not very practical to grapple multiple attackers. People will favour their own system, fair enough, if you can make it work for you that's good. There's no point getting somebody to try and master a system that doesn't suit them. I always liked to take some parts of a system and incorporate them into my own arsenal. I'll take chokes, holds, arm bars etc from grappling and use them while stood up. On the ground your vunerable and I don't like the idea of choking out somebody on the ground while somebody else boots you in the head. Experience helps most of us to decide what works and what doesn't. I binned my old knife defence techniques, learned in Kung-fu. I revised my old Kung-fu wrist locks to use them in a practical way. I took from Thai-boxing and adapted it into my arsenal of Boxing and Kickboxing, utilizing what worked for me and binning what I couldn't utilize. I may see the world in black and white, but combat is anything but.

To sum it all up, what worked for you may be useless for me and vice-versa. Each to his own.
YHWH bless.
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Re: Martial Arts and unarmed self-defence

Postby Phineas335 » Thu May 28, 2015 11:50 pm

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
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Re: Martial Arts and unarmed self-defence

Postby TR » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:26 pm

The older I get, the more I like weapons. I have done BJJ for years and I believe it to be the best martial art, especially for someone weaker to overcome someone stronger. That being said, I cannot beat the stronger, younger guys with better technique. Some people put more time into training and get good fast. There are some very dangerous guys out there in unarmed combat. I have had some mat time with some of the best in the world and admire their skills. I live in a city with high crime and most confrontations are not one on one. i believe even with weapons that empty hand combat is important to know. Punches come fast and hard when it is real. I like awareness and pepper spray as my first lines of defense for non lethal confrontations. Since this post is about unarmed defense I will stop there.
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