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Paganism in England in the 8th century AD

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Paganism in England in the 8th century AD

Postby Fenwick » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:35 pm

Recently I've been reading The Ecclesiastical History of the English People written by the English monk Bede in 731:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/38326/38 ... 326-h.html

He charts the early history of Britain under the Romans, and continues with the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons and their conversion to Christianity. I had been thinking about this for a while, and I came across this passage in reading it, where King Edwin of Northumbria discusses the Christian faith he has discovered with his own pagan priests:

The chief of his own priests, Coifi, immediately answered him, “O king, consider what this is which is now preached to us; for I verily declare to you what I have learnt beyond doubt, that the religion which we have hitherto professed has no virtue in it and no profit. For none of your people has applied himself more diligently to the worship of our gods than I; and yet there are many who receive greater favours from you, and are more preferred than I, and are more prosperous in all that they undertake to do or to get. Now if the gods were good for any thing, they would rather forward me, who have been careful to serve them with greater zeal. It remains, therefore, that if upon examination you find those new doctrines, which are now preached to us, better and more efficacious, we hasten to receive them without any delay.”


It occurred to me how this Coifi's reasoning shows how out of touch neopagans are with what our ancestors really were like. They have this vision of men with axes and pointy helmets shouting war cries and and worshipping anti-Christian gods with great power and bloodlust, cruelly taken from their ancestral ways by Christian trickery.

But Coifi approaches the faith almost in the manner of a Greek philosopher, studying Christianity beforehand, and reasoning that as he has not been granted as much by providence as the Christians have gained, he counsels the king quite dispassionately to abandon their old ways. He even goes on to suggest that he himself should be the first to go and smash the idols in his own shrines.

The pagan faith amongst these Saxons does not appear to be a deep faith as we understand it today, only a cultural error and habitual mannerism that many of them abandoned as soon as they learnt the truth that had been lost to them. Therefore neopagan attempts to craft a religion as an antithesis to Christianity is entirely artificial, because the old pagans never had as deep a doctrine or stable philosophy to maintain it.



I'd also discovered the name of a tribe that Bede mentions in Britain called the Gewissae, which I thought was interesting given it's eerily similar similarlity to the the word "Jewis" which Wycliffe uses to denote the Judeans or Jews, though this may be coincidental. Wikipedia suggests this is a germanic word that means "certain" or "sure". The question is what is it that these people certainly are?

Another interesting section is where Bede describes the Picts as having come from Scythia. The translator points out that this can mean Scandinavia, but in that earlier time it can be anywhere from that region down to the Caucasus mountains.

This is part of why I enjoy reading older texts from that era. You get a sense of what people in that time believed, less sullied by the prejudices of our present age. Bede also gives a really beautiful description of 8th century Britain, even discussing the way the daylight varies at different times of the year, a constant that reaches across the centuries as if you were there with him.
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Re: Paganism in England in the 8th century AD

Postby Filidh » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:45 pm

i just bought a cheap used edition of bede's book for $5, altho i'm waiting to read it until i finish with schopenhauer's "the fourfold root of the principle of sufficient reason" and "beowulf".

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17919/17 ... APTER_XCVI

njals saga was the first icelandic saga i'd ever read, and in it, many of the icelanders, at the annual allthing, which is the national assembly, in 999, voted to convert to christianity.

it also goes to show you that yahweh has a sense of humor, since 9 is a sacred number of norse paganism and represents wisdom, for the 9 days that odin hung pierced by himself on the worldtree, and 999 is considered the number of wisdom and the word, or the runes which just means letters ie the word, according to odin, and they converted to christianity in 999. the account of this change of faith is in part in the link above.

regarding peaceful conversion as a whole, you're right, almost all of the germanic and celtic pagans converted peacefully. only a small minority of norsemen in upper scandinavia, and the balts, required violence to convert.


there's another account in early germanic christianity, inwhich a christian is travelling thruout scandinavia preaching the word and comes upon a camp of norsemen who were going vikinging. among them dwelt a berzerker, whom all of the viking camp held in the highest esteem.

now the christian went to them, and said thus: make a blazing fire, and if your berzerker walks thru it unscathed and i walk thru it scathed, stay as pagans, but if i walk thru it unscathed and your berzerker, whom you hold in the highest esteem in warriorhood, bravery, and battleskill, walks thru it scathed, then come be christians from that moment on.

and the norsemen who were vikinging made the blazing fire, and gathered round, and the berzerker came and went thru the fire first, and cried out as his skin burnt, and ran away aflame and screaming, and jumped into the nearby lake.

then the christian walked thru the fire, and he was unharmed, and they all stood in awe, and took on the christfaith from that day forth.


as regards modern neopagans, a majority of the time, the morals are the issue, as the christfaith has a strict moral code that we are to abide by if we are to consider ourselves christians, as it is written, if you love yahweh, you'll keep his commandments. however, there are plenty of pagans i've met who have philosophical disagreements with the christfaith, and to them we should be serious and take them seriously in discussion with them, for if we don't take them and their belief seriously when we're discussing the matter of faith with them, what motive do they have to take us and our belief seriously?
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Re: Paganism in England in the 8th century AD

Postby Fenwick » Thu May 01, 2014 1:16 pm

I do agree that there are different types of neopagans. There are the type that ask questions about CI and are often quite happy when they find out we don't share the pro-racemixing agenda of the judeos. They approach questions from a philosophical standpoint, not as an attack. Even when they don't actually become Christians, they usually maintain a respectful manner.


It's the other type, the ones who've listened to too much death metal, who follow an ill-defined internet religion that has no real link to the pagans of the past, and generally only ask questions to cause conflict, without caring what the answers will be. They're of the sort that Bede refutes the historicity of.
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