Predestination

[PhillipWMorrow]

"Christ was slain before the foundation of the world". All that happens has already been written. It's just now being played out. Yahweh exists outside of the box of time. We cannot yet fully grasp that logic. There is no free will. There is only the "Elect" and a "remnant" of Israel who will be saved. The "soul that sinneth shall die". Since the Bible was written to, for and about Israel then this applies. After forgiveness there is no reparation for those who continue to commit that sin. How will you know if you are part of the Elect ? That is something you have to work out w/ Yahweh. If you truly are part in the Elect He will let you know ! You were chosen before you were in the womb. Two prophets were chosen before they were born. John the Baptist and Jeremiah. Is that not proof of Predestination ? Can you enter into this "Remnant" ? No it was pre-ordained.

[wmfinck]

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

It is not very pious to imagine that one half of the Scriptures proves the other half to somehow be wrong. You are putting private interpretations on some words, and employing them in a manner which allows you to discard a portion of Scripture.

A remnant is a remainder. There were different remnants at different times, due to different causes and reasons.

The Word of God says that Israel is His elect. It does not exclude any portion of Israel. By what authority do you redefine that? Please inform us.

I do not see where the "remnant" and the "elect" are one and the same at any given moment.

4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me

If you would like to post a fuller explanation of your position and the way that you are using those terms, fine. Tell us what you mean. But it may turn out better for you not to argue with the Scripture.

[Staropramen]

It's wrong to assume that salvation i.e. "preservation" is [for the Israelite] to be spared from an eternal torture chamber where some Israelites may end up. Preservation in this life vs. physical death is usually what's being spoken of.

9 Each who has been born from of Yahweh does not create wrongdoing, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to do wrong, because from of Yahweh he has been born. 10 By this are manifest the children of Yahweh and the children of the False Accuser.

Children of the false accuser create wrongdoing because their very existence is wrongdoing. We Israelites make mistakes which are covered by the blood of Christ. Repenting gives us preservation in this life and an opportunity to acquire heavenly rewards. Our mistakes get sent ahead to the judgement. Israelite rejection of Christ may cause a premature death and will lead to being judged for our mistakes the result being an eternity of shame and everlasting contempt [Daniel 12:2]. All Israel is saved. Some will have rewards. Some will be very sorry. None go into the Lake of Fire. That is for the walking corruptions.

[PhillipWMorrow]

What I was trying to convey was I am a believer in Predestination. I can't argue Scripture w/ you Bill. I would not stand a chance . If there is no predestination doesn't that open the door for "free will" ? I understand your stance on Israel and all will be saved. I just do not accept it. I am not trying to "start something". I HOPE you are correct in that interpretation! Is my salvation at stake for my views ? I have been told so and of course I do not accept that either. You are a gifted teacher and have a unique understanding of Scripture. I wish and pray I could grasp the Bible as well as you. I understand the remnant and elect are the same. I wish you would write a commentary on Romans. I have done the "course" you have online. Have not some of brothers sinned so unrepentantly there is no salvation for them? What if John Wayne Gacy was an Israelite? The Green River killer etc.? What does the "soul that sinneth shall die" apply to? I still look forward to meeting you someday. Your friend and brother. Yah Bless! PWM

[Nayto]

Is my salvation at stake for my views ? I have been told so and of course I do not accept that either.

I think it's silly when people say that one's salvation is at stake because of certain views. It's a classic bullying technique. I've had the same sentiment directed at me as well.

I wish you would write a commentary on Romans. I have done the "course" you have online.

I'm not sure if we're referring to the same thing, but Bill did a very detailed series on the book of Romans: http://christogenea.org/podcasts/romans-index

[EzraLB]

What I was trying to convey was I am a believer in Predestination. I can't argue Scripture w/ you Bill. I would not stand a chance . If there is no predestination doesn't that open the door for "free will" ? I understand your stance on Israel and all will be saved. I just do not accept it. I am not trying to "start something". I HOPE you are correct in that interpretation! Is my salvation at stake for my views ? I have been told so and of course I do not accept that either. You are a gifted teacher and have a unique understanding of Scripture. I wish and pray I could grasp the Bible as well as you. I understand the remnant and elect are the same. I wish you would write a commentary on Romans. I have done the "course" you have online. Have not some of brothers sinned so unrepentantly there is no salvation for them? What if John Wayne Gacy was an Israelite? The Green River killer etc.? What does the "soul that sinneth shall die" apply to? I still look forward to meeting you someday. Your friend and brother. Yah Bless! PWM

You're contradicting yourself--one the one hand you're admitting you don't know the Scripture and haven't studied Bill's complete commentaries, yet you still refuse to accept Bill's "unique" interpretations. Bill's interpretations are not unique--they are completely consistent with the original Apostles. How can you deny that "All of Israel shall be saved" if you haven't studied the Bible where it proves time after time that this is the case?

Your use of Israelite "serial killers" is an emotional straw man argument. There are no exceptions: even serial killers will be justified as long as they are true-born Israelites. As Bill has pointed out on many occasions--they will be saved, but they may not like it very much. When you claim that serial killers can't be saved, you are opening yourself up to the universalist notion that Yahweh is arbitrary rather than consistent about whom He will preserve. He said he will preserve and bestow mercy on the entire race of Adam, and He means it:

"Just as in Adam all die, then in that manner in Christ all shall be produced alive."
1 Corinthians 15:22

"But you [Israel] are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people….those who have not been shown mercy but are now shown mercy."
1 Peter 2:9-10

Bill has done an entire series on Romans. In fact, I just finished listening to the entire series for the second time, and I look forward to listening to it again.

http://christogenea.org/podcasts/romans-index

[wmfinck]

What I was trying to convey was I am a believer in Predestination.

We should all believe in predestination. But Yahweh predestinated Israel!!! That IS His Word. Those ARE the promises. Why do you think Yahweh would predestinate a race, promise mercy and forgiveness, and then play a trick because some of them were not good enough?

Wow, that is works salvation. But there is no work that men can do to save themselves. What a conflict.

I can't argue Scripture w/ you Bill. I would not stand a chance .

I don't know everything. I only know some things really good. So I am sure about them. Certainly you will catch me some day.

If there is no predestination doesn't that open the door for "free will" ?

Mark and I explain it differently, but the result is about the same. There is free will, but we have no choice over our decisions. Wow, what a paradox.

Here is how I resolve it: When men make a decision to act, even though God knows with certainty which route men shall take, so that their path is predetermined, men are agreeing to their course of action. So man has no control over his own destiny. But he agrees every step of the way with how he will get there.

I understand your stance on Israel and all will be saved. I just do not accept it. I am not trying to "start something". I HOPE you are correct in that interpretation!

Your argument is not with me. You are arguing with the plain word of Scripture and the promises of God. I am not offended. I would just pray for your humility, because real humility is subjecting oneself to the Word of God.

Is my salvation at stake for my views ? I have been told so and of course I do not accept that either.

All Israel shall be saved. "27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

I understand the remnant and elect are the same.

This is the misunderstanding that I tried to avoid in my original reply, and I apparently failed. The remnant and the elect are NOT the same.

The children of Israel are the elect. Period. That is the Word of God as He defined the "elect".

There were diverse remnants for different reasons at different times. Paul's words in Romans 9:27 are contorted out of context by Judeos, and you are following them.

I wish you would write a commentary on Romans. I have done the "course" you have online.

The 200+ pages of 8x11" text I have online is not enough to be called a "commentary"? LOL I thought so. If I put it into a book, it will get some editing. Maybe the interpolation of a new idea or a clarification here & there, but for the most part, that is the commentary I am capable of.

Have not some of brothers sinned so unrepentantly there is no salvation for them? What if John Wayne Gacy was an Israelite? The Green River killer etc.?

As Nayto and EzraLB have both already said quite well, these emotional straw-man arguments do not change the Word of God. By raising them, are you condemning an Israelite when you do not have all the facts that led them to do the things they may have done?

"...deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5)

I still look forward to meeting you someday. Your friend and brother. Yah Bless! PWM

I pray. There should be no hurt feelings when we disagree.

[Staropramen]

Have not some of brothers sinned so unrepentantly there is no salvation for them? What if John Wayne Gacy was an Israelite? The Green River killer etc.?

The notion that some Israelites can be so bad that they can remove themselves from Yahweh's promises must walk hand-in-hand with the idea that some non-whites can be good enough to include themselves in those same promises that are exclusive to Israel. If you accept one you must accept the other. A door that Yahweh has no control over would be a door that Yahweh has no control over. Why wouldn't such a door swing both ways?

[Kentucky]

Have not some of brothers sinned so unrepentantly there is no salvation for them? What if John Wayne Gacy was an Israelite? The Green River killer etc.?

The notion that some Israelites can be so bad that they can remove themselves from Yahweh's promises must walk hand-in-hand with the idea that some non-whites can be good enough to include themselves in those same promises that are exclusive to Israel. If you accept one you must accept the other. A door that Yahweh has no control over would be a door that Yahweh has no control over. Why wouldn't such a door swing both ways?

Speaking of doors, Christ said, "I am the door" John 10:9. Coupled with Mt. 15:24, only sheep come through the door; no goats allowed. If we didn't sin, what need would we have for a God to let us in for forgiveness?

Mark

[PhillipWMorrow]

"You're contradicting yourself--one the one hand you're admitting you don't know the Scripture and haven't studied Bill's complete commentaries, yet you still refuse to accept Bill's "unique" interpretations."...Nayto. I didn't say I didn't know Scripture. I'm not looking for answers from the "fan club" who would obviously accept anything a certain person has to say. Yeah, I did read Bill's "Romans" and understand Bill's "unique" understanding, I just don't accept it. Am I not allowed to question what appears to be an error? I'm sorry if my questions offend you. How did you interpret Scripture before christogenea?