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Christian order

This forum is for discussions and questions concerning Christian Identity direction, doctrine and debate.

Christian order

Postby Nayto » Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:21 am

There is a certain topic of conversation among CI which there are very different views on. One will always get a different answer depending on who you ask. The question is: What should we be doing to further the Kingdom of God? We are definitely under the oppression of the beast systems and Mystery Babylon, so much so that we are hated on account of Christ. This certainly makes it difficult to act on behalf of our beliefs outside of our personal lives. We risk discrimination, incarceration and even death.

There seem to be two basic "camps" when it comes to this subject and I'll try to generalize them. The first camp believes in the Gideon type of action, where if action is necessary, then God will overtly ordain the action and God's action will come first. Victory would be a miraculous landslide. Until such a time we are to order our personal lives in a Godly manner and patiently await such a time. The second camp believes that it is our duty to take the initiative and that even prior to God's overt blessing, we must take the fight to the enemy. They believe we must do this in spite of the risk of death and incarceration which would certainly result in the event of failure.

There seems to be a lot of cognitive dissonance between these two camps, that one must either believe one or the other. The problem is that Scripture isn't exactly clear on this matter. I certainly could make a strong argument either way using Scripture. The cognitive problem with this is that there is no need to select one or the other of the camps, as both are true. Both have merit.

The fact is that we certainly are under the oppression of the beast system under God's will and chastisement. It certainly isn't yet time to overthrow the system. For my argument I'd refer to Bill's presentations on the book of Romans, especially the sections where Paul is talking about this topic. To fight against the beast system is to go against God's chastisement against our people.

On the other hand, it is our duty to bring about God's Kingdom on Earth. How do we do this when we are hindered by the will of God Himself? James says in James 2:20 that faith without works is dead. This doesn't refer to some mystical level of faith where if we have enough then we are single handedly able to move a mountain. Certainly not. Our faith is simply the belief in our race and love for our race. This goes the same as with love for a family member, a friend or a wife/husband. What good is it if we say we love that person if there are no works to prove it? If we simply say it, that love is worthless. Love is in actions, not words. It is the same with our race in that love and faith is in actions, not words. How can we truly say we love our race if all we can offer it is words? In this way the degree of our faith and our love is proven in the degree of works.

Another good example is Christ's parable of the master who gave each of his servants five talents, two talents and one talent respectively. The one who hid that which was given was reprimanded for not doing anything more with it. If we have faith and talents (pun intended) then it is our obligation to make more. By this logic, is it simply enough to order our personal lives and nothing more? Do we then not only care for ourselves and not our kindred?

There seems to be a deadlock here between action and inaction, but I don't think that is true. We can still act and care for our race without going against God's rod of chastisement. There is no need to pick a side, because both are true and they are not mutually exclusive. One example is teaching. In most countries we are still able to teach the truth without problems with the law. Another is the care for our kindred who are in prison. What I am referring to goes far beyond these two things however, even though they are still definitely an essential part of services needed.

What the CI movement needs is social cohesion. The Google definition of cohesion is "the action or fact of forming a united whole" and synonyms given are "unity, togetherness, solidarity, bond, sticking together, continuity, coherence, connection, linkage, interrelatedness". It is not enough to simply talk about the truth as there is little cohesion in that. Having said that, I don't wish to disparage talk about the truth as purposeful action always starts with talk!

In Mark 11:23 Christ says that if we command mountains to move, they will move. Is He referring to a literal command to a literal mountain? Why would He use an example of such a useless act as moving a mountain if He meant it literally? His meaning is simply referring to the doing of seemingly impossible tasks if we have the faith and will to do it. In John 14:12 Christ says that we would do even greater works that He Himself! This verse has perplexed many since the words were uttered. How can we do greater works than Christ? Again the verse is mystified and people assume that Christ is referring to miracles and some kind of "magical" acts. I don't think that is true. I think He is referring to acts in the name of our God and our race. Such acts do not have to be wondrous, but can be rational, planned and purposeful.

In all of this there is absolutely no need for immediate, wondrous results. If we have faith like a mustard seed, the mountain does not have to move immediately. Just because we are unable to move the mountain immediately doesn't mean that there is no need or motive to act now. If we are able to practice on an anthill in the mean time then lets practice on the anthill. Practicing administration, devotion and love within the constraints of the beast system would be the perfect way to start this action. After all, why would God entrust us with the overthrowing of the beast system if we aren't even able to maintain any form of cohesion?! We start small and prove our worth in smaller matters. Work with the small amount of talents entrusted and build something more out of it. Once we've built something more we will probably be entrusted with more and so on. When one hires a new employee one gives them less responsibility and they prove themselves and as a result they are given some more. If we wouldn't entrust our livelihoods to a new employee, how can God entrust the administration of His Kingdom to a bunch of sinners with no history of responsible action?!

To conclude, I suggest that everyone act and build something more out of their faith. It needn't be something large, but rather something manageable, so long as it builds cohesion. As mentioned it could be teaching, ministering to kindred in jail, giving money to those who needed and even giving physical help to those who need it. I would love one day for us to have built a Christian community that is completely autonomous with interdependent kindred. I use nonspecific terminology because I myself don't have any clear view of how such a community would look, but I refer to the book of Acts where the apostles administered to the community who were harmonious with one another. If they achieved it back then, so we can now. It was the first thing the apostles sought to establish once the community knew of the truth and it should be the first thing we seek to establish as well. This can happen within the constraints of the beast system and such a goal is achievable in the future, but there needs to be a small start for any momentum to build at all. Efforts ought to be coordinated and intelligent.

That's all I have to say on it for now, but I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter.
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Re: Christian order

Postby NicoChristian » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:05 pm

I can quickly sum up some things that people can do. Firstly live your lives in obedience to Christ, that is the beginning. I once read a C.I. tract which gave instruction on how to fight the beast system. The author wrote not to attack neither to retreat, but to stubbornly continue regardless of what consequences followed. He said for example if we start a community and school and the government tries to put a stop to it, we stubbornly and strongly continue and God will look over us.

Everyman is the high priest of his family, communities aren't a bad thing, but it doesn't have to be a community. One family on their own land with many children is just as good, many people doing the same is great. My plan is to start a small community with my own family to start off with, if possible to expand from that. The main thing at the moment is faith, communities, land, resources and preparation. While the zoglings are panicing in their urban jungles and dying because the only skills they possess are how to design a smartphone app, we'll be surviving in the countryside and the wilderness, living off the land and being self-sufficient. Most people nowadays are screwed, they have no useful practical skills and couldn't even survive a camping expedition let alone the apocalypse.

Get skills, get training, get fit, get hardened, love discomfort and hardship until it becomes your friend, leave the system in mind and in body. Ditch as much modern technology as you can, your iphone won't work and it won't help you survive, neither will any computer. Become self-sufficient and live in peace with your family and your brethren.

All the above has been said many times for many centuries, it's still just as true to day as it ever was.
YHWH bless.
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Re: Christian order

Postby Kentucky » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:21 pm

Order: the way in which a set of things is arranged or done, so that it is clear which thing is first, second, third, etc. "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you" Mt. 6:33. What is the Kingdom? It is comprised of four elements: people, land, law and a king. If I'm reading you correctly, you're really asking about government, political involvement and revolution. There you will find the two camps much more defined. The question is asked "Men and brethren what shall we do?" Acts 2:37. Most people have the order of government from the top down, but biblically it is from the bottom up; government starts with the discipline of self, to deny thy self and take up the Cross daily.

Acts chapter 2 is clearly addressed to the house of Israel and what we must do prior the Second Coming of Christ and it has to do with the preparations of our heart, in making our robes clean and white (as a bride readies herself for the groom). It doesn’t have anything to do with whoring after strange gods and getting dunked in the church baptismal pool. Does the Bible tell us how to be the light of the world? Jesus guarantees it in John 8:12 by saying, "You who follow Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness" (John 12:46). Therefore, the command is: following, believing and then acting upon His teachings. "As many as received Him, to them He gave power to become the sons of God" (John 1:12). Jesus began His ministering to the people with the 'Sermon on the Mount' by sharing 8 secrets of genuine happiness. Then He talked about living an exemplary lifestyle, controlling anger, restoring relationships, of keeping promises and returning good for evil. He told us how to give with the right attitude, how to pray, how to store up treasure in heaven, how to overcome worry and how to deal with false teachers. He taught us how to obey the Law as a matter of love and to trust in Him as a cure for anxiety.

In spite of dark forces suspected of influencing the founding of America (which I believe is the place where we will move no more - II Samuel 7:10), God was not without influence in what has been called the manifest destiny of America. The 7 times punishment upon Israel expired in 1776. We are still judged, but that is only because the Law is simply a matter of cause and effect. What shall we do? Duet. 28 spells out the ramifications of blessings and curses. Becoming a Republican or Democrat will not save us, but neither will sitting on your rump waiting for a Rapture or some other excuse to remain apathetic. Faith is active, not passive. A mountain represents a nation; a hill represent a smaller region.

I agree with Bill that Christian Identity can no longer assume the appellation of a "movement" because there are so many diverse factions going in different directions. But, that does not mean we can't get our act together and start moving in the same direction. The enemy would consider something like that to be revolutionary, against their New World Order. A revolution doesn't necessarily have to be violent, but we should consider that "we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Romans 8:36) and there is nothing wrong or unchristian in defending and contending (fighting) for the faith. We have a God given right to life... liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I've written more on this subject in the article 'Is Revolution Christian?' at this link:

http://kinsmanredeemer.com/revolution-christian-part-1

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Re: Christian order

Postby Nayto » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:34 pm

Mark you're right about order. More than that is order as opposed to chaos. At the moment we have autonomous kindred acting on their own. Part of the beast system is to isolate the individual and in this way make them feel helpless and insignificant. With order and purpose more than one individual cannot unite behind a common goal. Of course the beginning is everyone's ability to order their own lives in accordance with Christian morals. We are taught extensively on how to do that in Scripture and Christian teachers have elaborated even further.

Christ said that where two or more are gathered, so shall He be there also. Why is there a need for more than one? Are any of us islands? How could we possibly act in unison without the ability to act in a Christian manner towards one another? The personal ordering of our lives is the proving ground for working as part of the team. Paul said that a man must have control of his family if he is to administer to the people. Just like in my opinion a man must have control over his mind and body before administering to the people, or even a family.

What use are these practices and the ordering of our lives if not for a higher purpose?

I believe it is time to start taking ground. CI seems to be growing quicker and quicker, despite the rate of change being small for now. There is a lot of energy in our kindred that as yet untapped.

In my opinion, the best way to start is charity. We are taught that charity covers sin and that God cares deeply for those in need. As a sinful people what we need most is the covering of our sins and to show God we care for the things close to Him. Even better if we are able to do this in a coordinated manner. That should be the start of it all. Laying down our lives for our brethren and giving of ourselves, whether it be time, money or energy, is an act of faith. It makes faith come alive.

Nico you mentioned some resource problems and you're absolutely right. Bill said recently "there is no such thing as a rich CI". I don't think we're ready for it yet. We have to show that we are faithful with little before God entrusts us with more.
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Re: Christian order

Postby Joe » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:47 am

I am working on my anger, my understanding. My family always says 'we can't change anything' and recently I have started saying 'we can change ourselves'. Once I conform myself to Christ, more and more, I can then help other people do the same ...just by being around them, helping them and being a Christian. By forgetting myself and working for them.

This is already happening. And I was the most anti-social person in the world. I am moving that mountain, bit by bit. I love God. Others can join me, we will all move towards Him, His way.
...and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
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Re: Christian order

Postby ElleJay » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:23 pm

You made me smile :)

I remember when someone close to me said he could NOT change. What a lie ... for that is what God does ... He changes us!!! How grateful I am that He does!!!

How good it is to hear that God is working in your life!!!

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Re: Christian order

Postby Joe » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:17 am

Elle said
You made me smile :)

I remember when someone close to me said he could NOT change. What a lie ... for that is what God does ... He changes us!!! How grateful I am that He does!!!


Wow, thanks Elle, God is great. You are so right, that is what God does, He actually came to us and showed us the way. His love, how He died and resurrected to show us. I cannot say.

PS: I hope God does give the person you mentioned the strength to repent, as it sure is like moving a mountain. Not to elevate myself, as I have to move Mt. Everest I think.
...and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
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Re: Christian order

Postby wmfinck » Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:26 pm

Wow, I wanted to repeat some of the highlights of the good answers here. Especially Kentucky's. But I just didn't have the time.

Here is my two cents:

http://christogenea.org/podcasts/walking-walk-brother-ryan-william-finck
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Re: Christian order

Postby Nayto » Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:59 pm

wmfinck wrote:Wow, I wanted to repeat some of the highlights of the good answers here. Especially Kentucky's. But I just didn't have the time.

Here is my two cents:

http://christogenea.org/podcasts/walking-walk-brother-ryan-william-finck


I agree with everything that was said, although I was a little confused by the end. What kind of people are you referring to who should be out in the streets if they feel they have a mandate? Are you referring specifically to extreme forms of action? Extreme action aside, I personally don't have a problem with spreading a message on the internet and gathering support. I'm quite sure you're referring to extremes, but I'm just covering all possibilities.

I feel like a lot of what was spoken about was regarding ordering our personal lives, which is good and well. I think a lot of people could learn a lot from what was spoken about and I even identified with certain things as they relate to my own experiences with other CI people. Maybe that's how certain people need to bridge their personal experience over to a more corporate experience. I'm referring to spending time with fellow CI and such. I personally on principle never decline an invitation from another CI or deny someone who would like to visit (within reason). It's a good first step to some form of cohesion.

My point is that there needs to be a next step. I don't think it's sufficient that we simply order our personal lives, despite it being a good thing. We must necessarily advance as corporate Christian Israel to greater things. Why would Paul bother to mention elders and servants of a community if there was no form of order or administration? We clearly see apostles administering to the communities as well. We see councils where things are definitively decided. Codification is an important aspect of the lives of White men. Did those participants of the councils think that their talk would become Scripture? I'm sure they'd gawk at the prospect. "Our talks are regarded as part of the law and the prophets? Are you crazy? Christ's work, yes, but us? We're a bunch of morons compared to Christ and those ancestors who wrote Scripture." That's what I imagine they would have said and it's exactly what any sane CI would say today. I'm not suggesting that our work become Scripture. Rather I'm saying that definitive decisions ought to be made. Things need to be done. Scripture needs to be applied to our cultural contexts. Bill, you mentioned that people shouldn't be watching sports. That shouldn't be a voice on an internet radio show. That should be a statute to live by in this day and age. When a Christian finds the truth of our race and identity, there should be some form of codified statute by which they can live. There are many examples of this.

I humbly won't presume to be able to make such decisions, although I definitely have my own opinions, lol. This is the case for many. This is the reason why I think there should be coordinated action towards caring for the proverbial widows and orphans of CI, as you mentioned in the latter parts of the show. As I mentioned already, this is a sure way of earning God's grace. In my opinion, this is what you do when you know you're a dirty sinner but you want to show God that you care. That's the situation we're in at the moment. We don't have apostles trained by Christ Himself to make important decisions, so we do the next best thing. Having said that, I believe that there are things we could codify in any case, but I won't go there quite yet.

Ultimately what I am saying is that cohesion requires more than the ordering of our personal lives. Cohesion is rarely something which emerges in a society where we are isolated. There needs to be concerted effort to bridge that isolation. Hitler's tactic was speeches and propaganda on very elemental levels of the human psyche. He hammered home on core issues repeatedly until the next person was able to repeat what he said. That's how the beast media system works by the way. It's even documented in mass communications, a sub-discipline of sociology. It's how people work. They're sheep. They need cohesion. Maybe we're not quite there yet, I don't know.

Last week Staro went to visit Mary in Maine to help her stockpile some wood for the winter. Through some basic coordination and personal sacrifice the job was done and everyone involved feels like they are a part of something. This simple act was started with a forum post. This certainly gave me hope that we're capable of greater things, especially given the proximity of the event to the time when I felt I had to put my thoughts on the forum. Not to be overly superstitious or anything, lol.
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Re: Christian order

Postby Staropramen » Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:13 pm

Nayto wrote:Last week Staro went to visit Mary in Maine to help her stockpile some wood for the winter. Through some basic coordination and personal sacrifice the job was done and everyone involved feels like they are a part of something. This simple act was started with a forum post. This certainly gave me hope that we're capable of greater things, especially given the proximity of the event to the time when I felt I had to put my thoughts on the forum. Not to be overly superstitious or anything, lol.


I would just like to emphasize that my wife was every bit as much a contributor to this effort as myself. She isn't CI and we continue to dispute over the meaning of scripture but nonetheless Yahweh moved her to support this effort completely. Cohesion may very well be a greater communicator than theology.
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