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I need help with a Paul-basher friend's argument.

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I need help with a Paul-basher friend's argument.

Postby MichaelAllen » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:04 am

Hey Folks,

My best friend in the CI movement about two years ago became anti-Paul. I haven't had the time until recently to address him. It is unfortunate because I feel a rift with him in fellowship over this, but he's convinced Paul was an infiltrator and agent provocateur/change agent.

One of the arguments used has to do with Paul's being rejected by the congregations in Asia minor. This is stated in II Timothy 1:15. This statement is coupled with Revelation 2:2, where the Ephesians are praised by Jesus Christ for having tried the false apostles and found them to be liars.

Now, the account of Acts 20 where Paul addresses the elders of the Ephesus assembly, he states the following:

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
36 And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.
37 And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him,
38 Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.


So the argument goes that Paul was the false apostle that was tried by the Ephesians and found to be a liar. I don't buy it. Paul prophesied that it would happen, and it appears to me that by the time of the Revelation letter, the church had identified the real corruptors, whoever they were.

Now this issue of jew detractors in the first century was well known and is the basis of all the conflict of the early church (Jacob) and the Talmudic kikes (Esau). Paul even tells the Thessalonikan assembly in II Thessalonians 1 that Christ was about to inflict a great destruction on their persecutors for the purpose of giving the saints in Thessalonika (and elsewhere) some relief from their adversaries. They infiltrated these assemblies and then staged all kinds of events or spread lies (Acts 17) to get the believers into trouble with the authorities.

So, how do I take him on with this?

Look for another installment of so called proofs he's using to "prove" his position.
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Re: I need help with a Paul-basher friend's argument.

Postby wmfinck » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:09 am

Revelation 2:1-4 wrote:KJV Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.


http://christogenea.org/articles/willia ... ul-bashers

There are twenty-something podcasts and 50-something pages on this topic all linked from that one page. I do not know that I want to repeat them here. I plan to do more on this topic in the future.

I also discussed this where Paul first went to Ephesus in my recent Acts presentations.

So many clowns, so little time.
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Re: I need help with a Paul-basher friend's argument.

Postby MichaelAllen » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:29 am

Yeah Bill, and it's a crying shame that the demand for clown suits is being met with such ample supply. There's something to wear for everyone. Whatever fruitcake combination you can concoct, you can special order and they'll rush deliver your very own clown suit for $9.99... or free, if you sign up for a lifetime "How to be completely hoodwinked by jews" membership, which is also free.

Sad to see so many good people get sucked into the clown convention.
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Re: I need help with a Paul-basher friend's argument.

Postby Staropramen » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:39 am

MichaelAllen wrote:Yeah Bill, and it's a crying shame that the demand for clown suits is being met with such ample supply. There's something to wear for everyone. Whatever fruitcake combination you can concoct, you can special order and they'll rush deliver your very own clown suit for $9.99... or free, if you sign up for a lifetime "How to be completely hoodwinked by jews" membership, which is also free.

Sad to see so many good people get sucked into the clown convention.


Let's remind our viewers that we do not wish to offend those people that make an honest living wearing grease-paint, a fright wig, a big red nose and over-sized shoes while entertaining children at parties.

[Bill, you kill me everytime you say that during the broadcasts] :lol:
"If God is a Jew then the only thing left for us to do is commit suicide"
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http://historicalrecordings.net/
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Re: I need help with a Paul-basher friend's argument.

Postby wmfinck » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:07 pm

Well, for much of my Pragmatic Genesis series, I was playing this on my stream before starting the program:



I won't start a thread, What's Bill Listening To? LOL
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Re: I need help with a Paul-basher friend's argument.

Postby wmfinck » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:15 pm

Michael,

My point in accentuating Revelation 2:4 is that Paul's Gospel teaching must have been the "first love" which the Christians of Ephesus had as an assembly. Many presume Priscilla and Aquila to have preached in Ephesus first, however that is certainly not true, once the text of Acts 18 is properly examined.
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