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Denying the Divinity of Christ

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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby 2ndWitness » Thu May 07, 2015 3:37 pm

wmfinck wrote:This is the arrogance of Judeo-Christians which you have so readily reflected.


That fits every Judaized person I've ever met... but I'm not 'Judeoed'.

wmfinck wrote:Christ was the rock in the desert. 1500 years before He was born in the flesh. Yahweh God was the pillar of smoke, and the pillar of fire, among other things. The entire "trinity" premise is flawed from its foundation.


Exodus 13:21 "And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:"(bold added)

2ndWitness wrote:2) Whose voice came down from Heaven and called Jesus His Son?


wmfinck wrote:God can be everywhere and anywhere at once.


Just because God is omnipresent and CAN play parlor tricks, doesn't mean that He WOULD.

2ndWitness wrote:4) Whom did Jesus call the Father, and how are His will and commandments said to be different from those of the Lord Jesus?


wmfinck wrote:His commandments are not different. He is God and His commandments are in the Old Testament.


Where is Jesus teaching all of the words Moses said, including the 'not adding or deleting' part?

2ndWitness wrote:5) Whose throne is Jesus currently seated upon?


wmfinck wrote:Christ said "I and my Father are one" and "He who has seen Me has seen the Father".


"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool."

John 17:11 "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are."

2ndWitness wrote:6)Into whose hands does Jesus commit His spirit?


wmfinck wrote:Many of the actions of Christ in His ministry portray Him as man living under God.


Same answer, here?

Matthew 27:46 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?"
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"--The Lord Jesus Christ
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby Kentucky » Thu May 07, 2015 4:04 pm

2ndWitness wrote:Just because God is omnipresent and CAN play parlor tricks, doesn't mean that He WOULD.

Why would you even insinuate that God CAN play parlor games? Other than to insinuate that YOU can play head games?

Where is Jesus teaching all of the words Moses said, including the 'not adding or deleting' part?

Mathew 5:17. Rev. 22:18, the words of Christ, and Deut. 4:2 and 12:32, the words of Moses... same deal!

Why don't you just come clean and say what you're advocating? Are you denying the deity of Jesus Christ? Yes or no will suffice.

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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby wmfinck » Thu May 07, 2015 4:38 pm

2ndWitness,

You are certainly not of a contrite spirit.

You have not shown any acceptance of the Scriptures quoted which tell us that Christ is God. Rather, you are still running around trying to pick out Scriptures which you think prove that He is not.

So you continue to believe that one half of the Bible somehow proves the other half to be wrong. That is a Judeo attitude and whether you deny it or not, you still possess it.

Sophistry will get you nowhere.

Concerning the Law, Christ Himself quoted Moses, and then said that he came not to destroy it, but to fulfill it. Additionally, Daniel 9:27 is a Messianic prophecy that details the facets of the old Covenant that are done away with in Christ.
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby wmfinck » Thu May 07, 2015 5:16 pm

I am going to cut to the chase concerning the Law, and quote 2ndWitness from another thread:

2ndWitness wrote:I am a believer and follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the commandments He gave on the Sermon on the Mount, etc., are what I am told will judge me. I believe that Paul is the Apostle to those who have never been circumcised under the law of Moses, so that his long lists of what not to do are also part of my moral code. And I believe that what Paul was given to tell us came by the revelation of God, so that I know my current standing and my position in Christ, and that I am one in spirit with those who also believe these things.


But the instructions of the Sermon on the Mount are not the commandments of Christ. That is a point of confusion which 2ndWitness is creating. While both are important, each set of instructions has their own place, and the commandments of Moses come first.

This is evident in Matthew chapter 19:

Matthew 19 wrote:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.


Here Christ defines the commandments of Moses as the commandments necessary for eternal life.

The instructions of the Sermon on the Mount are related to brotherly love, which Christ taught as a "new commandment" as recorded in the Gospel of John.

Keeping the instructions of the Sermon on the Mount is useless if one is not also abiding by the ten commandments found in the Law of Moses.
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby 2ndWitness » Thu May 07, 2015 5:54 pm

2ndWitness wrote:Just because God is omnipresent and CAN play parlor tricks, doesn't mean that He WOULD.

Kentucky wrote:Why would you even insinuate that God CAN play parlor games?


Parlor game: A scenario which has one single entity, at one and the same time, as 1)a dove, 2)a voice from Heaven, and 3)the Son of God being baptized. What word or set of words would you like call it, kentucky?

Where is Jesus teaching all of the words Moses said, including the 'not adding or deleting' part?

Kentucky wrote:Mathew 5:17. Rev. 22:18, the words of Christ, and Deut. 4:2 and 12:32, the words of Moses... same deal!


Acts 15 has part of the law in it, but the whole law is not being advocated there, either.

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God: and His Father is God: and the Holy Spirit is God.

But I don't believe that the clouds or the fire or the burning bush or the rock of water are gods... I see these as analogies, because I am not a believer in inanimate-object-idols.
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"--The Lord Jesus Christ
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby wmfinck » Thu May 07, 2015 6:07 pm

Mark 12:29 wrote:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord


John 20:28-29 wrote:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


Ephesians 4:4-6 wrote: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


John 10:30 wrote:30 I and my Father are one.


So if there are three Gods, which of these Scriptures are wrong?

1 Corinthians 10:4 wrote: 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Is God limited to three? Or is God ONE that manifests Himself in many ways?
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby 2ndWitness » Thu May 07, 2015 6:30 pm

wmfinck wrote:I am going to cut to the chase concerning the Law, and quote 2ndWitness from another thread:

2ndWitness wrote:I am a believer and follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the commandments He gave on the Sermon on the Mount, etc., are what I am told will judge me. I believe that Paul is the Apostle to those who have never been circumcised under the law of Moses, so that his long lists of what not to do are also part of my moral code. And I believe that what Paul was given to tell us came by the revelation of God, so that I know my current standing and my position in Christ, and that I am one in spirit with those who also believe these things.


But the instructions of the Sermon on the Mount are not the commandments of Christ. That is a point of confusion which 2ndWitness is creating. While both are important, each set of instructions has their own place, and the commandments of Moses come first.

This is evident in Matthew chapter 19:

Matthew 19 wrote:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.


Here Christ defines the commandments of Moses as the commandments necessary for eternal life.

The instructions of the Sermon on the Mount are related to brotherly love, which Christ taught as a "new commandment" as recorded in the Gospel of John.

Keeping the instructions of the Sermon on the Mount is useless if one is not also abiding by the ten commandments found in the Law of Moses.


Do you see all 10 commandments listed in that Matthew 19 quotation? I sure don't.

In Matthew 5, I see Jesus teaching against more than one Mosaic Law. Because Moses was setting up an earthly kingdom for earthly people. What Jesus brings IS brotherly love... and it's also about not harming ANYone. To resist not evil, there have to be evil people there. To be persecuted and bless the persecutors, there have to be evil people there. And Paul tells us that we are to give our enemies food and drink, to heap coals on their heads. He certainly cannot be talking of unbelievers, either, since there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Which takes us back to Matthew 5, where we see that some people are in danger of hell fire... which also cannot be said of believers. Jesus was preaching the Kingdom Gospel... but the Kingdom will not include murderers and liars and etc. And He knew from the first that they wouldn't accept Him because He quoted from that Prophecy of Isaiah 61 and stopped in the middle of it... the middle is where we are today. After the Body of Christ is gone, the second half of that scripture will be fulfilled... which will fulfill the curse part of the Law.

As for the commandments of Moses coming first, yeah... for those who are currently in need of it. Paul tells us what sort of people need their hands and feet duct-taped just to keep them from murdering everyone around them. Paul says the law is for the lawless. Those are the types of people who need it all spelled out for them in black and white, because they have the sort of natures that look on all others with covetousness. Jesus' followers don't need to be told not to kill... what sort of people DO need to be told that, anyway? And they don't need to be told not to take what isn't theirs, and hopefully not to lie and gossip, either. Paul wrote to specific Churches about their specific problems. Corinth got the whole boat-load of shalt-nots. But one of them had not one thing bad said about them. Those people are the first witnesses in the Revelation letters. The second witnesses will be like them. And they will be kept out the Great Tribulation... the wrath part with the vials... and all of the convoluted passages which also belong to that period of time.

Yes, I know I'm rattling on about seemingly unrelated things... but my time is short.
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"--The Lord Jesus Christ
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby 2ndWitness » Thu May 07, 2015 6:53 pm

wmfinck wrote:
Mark 12:29 wrote:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord


John 20:28-29 wrote:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


Ephesians 4:4-6 wrote: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


John 10:30 wrote:30 I and my Father are one.


So if there are three Gods, which of these Scriptures are wrong?

1 Corinthians 10:4 wrote: 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Is God limited to three? Or is God ONE that manifests Himself in many ways?


They are all three God, and they are one God. If you think that your finite mind can understand this mystery which was never even revealed to Paul, then you're ready for the gnostic school of interpretation. Ephesians 5 touches on this mystery in a sideways fashion. And the believers are called one(as you've pointed out, above). I don't know anyone who can figure it out, but I see all sorts of attempts which fail. I even read where some people think that the body and blood of Christ are quite literally meant when it comes to communion. The people of the Book were surrounded by polytheists, who quite literally saw gods in sticks and stones. A whole lot of names have been given to these mythological creatures. And most of them came from Babylon. There is a very good reason why the Lord your God is one needed to be stressed. And the Judaists of today still believe that... but they don't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and they haven't got the Holy Spirit of God as their interpreter, either. So they plod along, pretending that they can keep the Mosaic Law without its sin offerings. How sad is that? The Pharisee Talmudists won't let them even step in the direction of belief. I pray for the day when those Babylonians are all gone.
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"--The Lord Jesus Christ
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby wmfinck » Thu May 07, 2015 7:10 pm

2ndWitness evidently changed her opinions from those earlier ones which were expressed here in this very thread. But at the same time 2ndWitness pretends to speak down to us as if we require correction.

The truth was spoken, that 2ndWitness did not have much time. I have suspended the account simply because I do not like the condescending attitude. Especially when I am accused of not knowing but see things I have written quite often repeated back to me, as if I am being talked down to.

Wow, what a jerk.
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby Heather » Thu May 07, 2015 9:27 pm

She ( I'm assuming because of writing and arguing style) has a lot of studying to do. I don't think she knows what she believes. She's still utterly jewed and/or poped, sadly.
You guys were far more patient than I even expected you to be.
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