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Denying the Divinity of Christ

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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby Staropramen » Mon May 04, 2015 10:04 pm

2ndWitness wrote:I don't consider the Lord Jesus Christ to be only a manifestation of God. Christians are also 'supposed to be' manifesting or showing the world who God is, but even the most pious Christians are not God. The same cannot be said of the Lord Jesus Christ.


When did I say that you believe Jesus Christ to be the only manifestation of God the Father? Christians are commanded to demonstrate the love of Christ i.e be ambassadors of Christ. Where did I include ambassadorship of Christians in a list of manifestation's of Yahweh beyond the three generally understood to comprise the Trinity? I only cited the burning bush.
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby Staropramen » Mon May 04, 2015 10:09 pm

2ndWitness wrote:
Staropramen wrote:some kike's gefilte farts.



Toward whom are you addressing this phrase... er... sir?
It can certainly not be me you're talking about with that crude phrase.
I don't even follow the law of Moses, much less the Talmud of the Pharisees.


Go back and read the whole statement. It was directed at the content of your post, not you personally.
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby 2ndWitness » Tue May 05, 2015 2:14 am

2ndWitness wrote:I don't consider the Lord Jesus Christ to be only a manifestation of God. Christians are also 'supposed to be' manifesting or showing the world who God is, but even the most pious Christians are not God. The same cannot be said of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Staropramen wrote:When did I say that you believe Jesus Christ to be the only manifestation of God the Father? Christians are commanded to demonstrate the love of Christ i.e be ambassadors of Christ. Where did I include ambassadorship of Christians in a list of manifestation's of Yahweh beyond the three generally understood to comprise the Trinity? I only cited the burning bush.


I was disagreeing with you... should I have made that clear? I said that do not believe Jesus is ONLY a manifestation of God. The definition of manifestation doesn't fit what I believe to be true about the Lord Jesus Christ. What I said about how Christians manifest the love of God was not a reply to you... it was about me, and how I try to live.
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"--The Lord Jesus Christ
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby 2ndWitness » Tue May 05, 2015 3:04 am

Kentucky wrote:The New Covenant puts the law in our hearts and mind; the same law from Moses, not anything added to or diminished from. Don't you know that our body is now the Temple of God? How can God dwell within you if you have a lawless mentality?


"He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, he gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak."--The Lord Jesus Christ, John 12:48-50

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."(John 14)

How is this anything like a lawless mentality, Kentucky? This covenant has the Lord Jesus Christ being given specific words to say by the Father, and it has the Holy Ghost not only reminding us of what Jesus told us, but teaching us the things that the then-unregenerate men could not understand. And that's where our Paul comes in... and he points to Jesus, and tells us what our Lord's whole life and works have done for us believers... and then Paul reproves and rebukes the believers who aren't presenting themselves as living sacrifices.
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"--The Lord Jesus Christ
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby Joe » Tue May 05, 2015 3:09 am

Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


Christ was God, He came to men as a man and set an example for men. That is why He did some of the things He did. There is only one God.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

He was the everlasting Father, Yahweh.
...and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby wmfinck » Tue May 05, 2015 10:44 am

2ndWitness:

It is time for you to slow down. I gave you a three-line answer and rather than accept the Scripture you answered with three paragraphs of sophistry.

This is the arrogance of Judeo-Christians which you have so readily reflected. YOUR Bible verses do not prove Bible verses cited by others to be wrong. That is asinine, but it is exactly how people like you act when you want to promote an opinion rather than seek the truth.

Christ was the rock in the desert. 1500 years before He was born in the flesh. Yahweh God was the pillar of smoke, and the pillar of fire, among other things. The entire "trinity" premise is flawed from its foundation.

1) To WHOM did Jesus pray?


Yahshua Christ is God in the Flesh: the "fullness of the Divinty bodily", as Paul described Him. There are many other supporting Scriptures in Isaiah, Matthew, the Revelation and elsewhere.

No Bible verse which you can provide will somehow disprove other Bible verses. Therefore it is your interpretations of things which you must reconsider.

Christ prayed to the Father as an example for men. The purpose of His incarnation was not to be God on earth, but to live and die as a man.

2) Whose voice came down from Heaven and called Jesus His Son?


God can be everywhere and anywhere at once.

3) To Whom are we to pray in Jesus name?


Praying to Him in the name of Christ recognizes His sacrifice for us. His enemies the Jews claim to pray to G-d, but they do not have Him and their rejection of Christ proves that. Without Christ their is no approach to God, as Paul explained quite well.

4) Whom did Jesus call the Father, and how are His will and commandments said to be different from those of the Lord Jesus?


His commandments are not different. He is God and His commandments are in the Old Testament.

5) Whose throne is Jesus currently seated upon?


The bodily Christ is the physical manifestation of the invisible God. It is therefore illustrated that they are together. So we see language such as this in the Revelation: "12 Behold! I come quickly! And My reward is with Me to render to each as is his work! 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Since Yahweh claimed to the the First and the Last in Isaiah, they must be one and the same.

Christ said "I and my Father are one" and "He who has seen Me has seen the Father".

How many can you count to get to "one"?

6) Into whose hands does Jesus commit His spirit?


Many of the plain statements of Christ and of the prophets of Christ prove that He is Yahweh God. Many of the actions of Christ in His ministry portray Him as man living under God. That is because He lived not as God, but as man as an example for men.

7) And how on earth do you reconcile the whole picture of Revelation 5? The Ancient of Days is clearly shown to be seated upon the throne, the seven Spirits of God are around the throne and the Lamb of God stands before the throne and takes the scroll... all three Persons of the godhead are there.


Funny, Revelation chapter 4 says that the seven spirits are only lamps of fire burning before His throne. These are allegorical symbols, not literal descriptions of what is God. In Revelation 3:1 it is the words of Christ, and it is a reference to Christ where it says "he that hath the seven Spirits of God", so your paradigm is easily broken.

Isaiah chapter 9 wrote: 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Depart from your sophistry.
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby Kentucky » Tue May 05, 2015 12:04 pm

2ndWitness wrote:How is this anything like a lawless mentality, Kentucky?

You might be able to play this little shell game from the church you came from, but not here. When you make the provocative remark, "I don't even follow the law of Moses" and then simply quote a couple of unrelated verses to supposedly prove your contention that God's Law is not to be followed, then that puts you, categorically, in the position of being antinomian i.e. opposed to the Mosiac law and thus lawless, without the Law. Secondly, the judeo-Christian churches do not explain the two offices of Christ when He is speaking as a fleshly man and when He speaking as God. If you get the two mixed up, which you have done repeatedly, then you are bound to be confused and hold to the doctrines of man, rather than Scripture, which requires a "rightly dividing of the word of truth," instead of where you "come from." Nobody here wants to quench your spirit, but as a new guest in our community, you should have the courtesy of reflecting your namesake i.e. a second witness, which "establishes a matter," and not a hostile witness. If any of us were to walk into a church where you come from and start talking about the racial message of Christian Identity, we would be thrown out on our ears in very short order. I think we've been more than fair in letting you cut loose and say whatever you want, but our forum is not a wild free-for-all 'anything goes' circus. There are other venues for unbridled rhetoric if that's what you're looking for. And one more question: are you male or female?

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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby Les » Tue May 05, 2015 3:29 pm

2ndWitness has asked and pointed out a lot which is normal for anyone coming from a jewdeo/judeo "christian" background.

For him/her and all others, the internet has been both a blessing and a hindrance in learning.
1- you have ALL the information at your fingertips now.
2-it has made many people lazier.

There is a wealth of free info on the forum, the website, and the broadcasts.
Before all of this existed, many C.I. folks would buy a Strong's Concordance and look up the original meanings in the first written texts (ie. Greek and Hebrew).
I think it is still valuable to do this, checking with the Strong's book, with the expositions that William Finck has given.
It is online, but I recommend buying your own hard copy.
Most good Christian book stores should carry a copy for around $30 for anybody that is serious about learning the Holy Bible.
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby Heather » Tue May 05, 2015 5:02 pm

I just wanted to chime in that for a moment, when I came out of "pagan" Christianity, many of the websites I came to were jew run, ready to pounce on the unsuspecting. For about 2 weeks, they'd convinced me that it must be blasphemy to worship Jesus as Yahweh. Such a complete 360 made me uncomfortable, and as it's not something we can get wrong, I prayed constantly that if it were true, I'd know. Finally, I realized they were being jews, and God opened my eyes to their lies. They are also the ones (mostly) promoting paul bashing, which almost got me too. Lol
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby wmfinck » Tue May 05, 2015 5:12 pm

Heather wrote:I just wanted to chime in that for a moment, when I came out of "pagan" Christianity, many of the websites I came to were jew run, ready to pounce on the unsuspecting. For about 2 weeks, they'd convinced me that it must be blasphemy to worship Jesus as Yahweh. Such a complete 360 made me uncomfortable, and as it's not something we can get wrong, I prayed constantly that if it were true, I'd know. Finally, I realized they were being jews, and God opened my eyes to their lies. They are also the ones (mostly) promoting paul bashing, which almost got me too. Lol
When discovering any new truths, we have to guard our hearts and do all things in sincere prayer.


Exactly right, Heather, it is not something we can get wrong.

For that reason my first answer to 2ndWitness was very simple. She quoted John 14:16, ostensibly to somehow prove that Christ is not the Father or the Holy Spirit.

But in John 14:18 Christ says "I will not leave you fatherless, I will come to you" and upon examining that statement we see Christ assert that He is BOTH the Father and the Holy Spirit!

The Gospel is true in simplicity. Thomas looked at the risen Christ and exclaimed "My Lord and my God", and that same Christ asserted that Israel has only one God. Therefore Christ must be a manifestation of that same God who is also the Father.

The Jews will all go to the Lake of Fire, without exception.
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