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Denying the Divinity of Christ

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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby 2ndWitness » Mon May 04, 2015 12:23 pm

wmfinck wrote:The "other comforter" is also Yahshua (Jesus) Christ, as John 14:18 proves.
"18 I will not leave you fatherlessless: I will come to you."
Jesus IS the Holy Spirit as well as being one and the same as God the Father.


To whom did Jesus pray? One and the same doesn't answer any of the questions raised by those verses I posted. Since the comforter comes down upon the Lord Jesus in the form of a dove, and the Father calls down from heaven and says He's pleased with His Son... is that supposed to be some sort of a one act play to fool the people, or is that supposed to be symbolized away somehow? When Paul says that Jesus is the fulness of the godhead bodily, he means in bodily form... since the Father and the Spirit are without bodily forms. Jesus says that the Father created a body for Him. And the gospels say that the Holy Spirit also did. IMHO, all of these things, when taken together, mean that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are three AND they're one. We see in a glass darkly, in this day and age. Our finite minds cannot fully comprehend all of the things that God only hints at, regarding Himself. But man and wife become one flesh, and believers become one with God, and these are that dim glass sort of analogies that our entirely human minds can comprehend... because God doesn't BECOME one, He IS one and He is three.

And if none of this makes sense to you, that doesn't mean I'm wrong. Appollus probably wasn't too pleased with Aquilla and Priscilla, either. And the same can almost certainly be said of Peter with regards to Paul. The Christian walk is a process in which some old and widely held beliefs must make way for the whole truth, and become themselves displaced. If all of those verses don't contradict any of the others, the truth has been achieved. And there are many many more verses which go along with the above, including "My commandments" as opposed to "My Father's commandments", and "Thy will be done" and "into Thy hands"... Whom does Jesus call His Father... Himself? How can any of this be true if the Trinity is not real? And if these verses aren't real, then what is? Most people tend to try to spiritualize away what their theology doesn't make room for, by saying it was an allegory. But allegories are easily seen for what they are, and the baptism of the Lord Jesus Christ is clearly not one of those places.

I'm sorry if this offends the feelings of anyone here, but this is a very serious matter, and feelings must be put aside with regards to its discussion. And if I am not allowed to discuss these things with you, then you must pull my account and these few posts and forget that I ever came here. Please think about these things, though, even if you do that. Because what seems ludicrous today may make perfect sense tomorrow... and you will be grateful that I spoke with you, and glorify God for showing me these things, and then sending me to you.
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"--The Lord Jesus Christ
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby Staropramen » Mon May 04, 2015 1:17 pm

Those of us that reject the Trinity do so because the bible doesn't limit the amount of manifestations of God to simply three. Take Exodus chapter three for example. You're assuming that we reject the concept of one God with multiple manifestations. We don't.

The purpose of Jesus praying to the Father was to be an example for us how to pray.
"If God is a Jew then the only thing left for us to do is commit suicide"
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby Staropramen » Mon May 04, 2015 1:25 pm

2ndWitness wrote:I'm sorry if this offends the feelings of anyone here, but this is a very serious matter, and feelings must be put aside with regards to its discussion.


You should really spend some time and get acquainted with this site and it's members before posting things like this. We're not a bunch of judeochristian girly-men tossed to and fro by some kike's gefilte farts. Feelings have absolutely nothing to do with what we do here.
"If God is a Jew then the only thing left for us to do is commit suicide"
-Dr. Wesley A. Swift
Historical Recordings of interest to Christians;
http://historicalrecordings.net/
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby Staropramen » Mon May 04, 2015 1:29 pm

"If God is a Jew then the only thing left for us to do is commit suicide"
-Dr. Wesley A. Swift
Historical Recordings of interest to Christians;
http://historicalrecordings.net/
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby 2ndWitness » Mon May 04, 2015 5:22 pm

Staropramen wrote:Those of us that reject the Trinity do so because the bible doesn't limit the amount of manifestations of God to simply three. Take Exodus chapter three for example. You're assuming that we reject the concept of one God with multiple manifestations. We don't.

The purpose of Jesus praying to the Father was to be an example for us how to pray.



I don't consider the Lord Jesus Christ to be only a manifestation of God. Christians are also 'supposed to be' manifesting or showing the world who God is, but even the most pious Christians are not God. The same cannot be said of the Lord Jesus Christ.


1) To WHOM did Jesus pray?
2) Whose voice came down from Heaven and called Jesus His Son?
3) To Whom are we to pray in Jesus name?
4) Whom did Jesus call the Father, and how are His will and commandments said to be different from those of the Lord Jesus?
5) Whose throne is Jesus currently seated upon?
6) Into whose hands does Jesus commit His spirit?
7) And how on earth do you reconcile the whole picture of Revelation 5? The Ancient of Days is clearly shown to be seated upon the throne, the seven Spirits of God are around the throne and the Lamb of God stands before the throne and takes the scroll... all three Persons of the godhead are there.

To be continued... or not (sigh)
Last edited by 2ndWitness on Mon May 04, 2015 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"--The Lord Jesus Christ
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby 2ndWitness » Mon May 04, 2015 5:32 pm

Staropramen wrote:some kike's gefilte farts.



Toward whom are you addressing this phrase... er... sir?
It can certainly not be me you're talking about with that crude phrase.
I don't even follow the law of Moses, much less the Talmud of the Pharisees.
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"--The Lord Jesus Christ
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby Kentucky » Mon May 04, 2015 5:49 pm

2ndWitness wrote:How can any of this be true if the Trinity is not real?


http://kinsmanredeemer.com/perfect-sermon-part-3

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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby Kentucky » Mon May 04, 2015 5:52 pm

2ndWitness wrote:I don't even follow the law of Moses.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" Mt. 5:17. So you're thinking the Law was destroyed?

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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby 2ndWitness » Mon May 04, 2015 7:40 pm

2ndWitness wrote:I don't even follow the law of Moses.

Kentucky wrote:"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" Mt. 5:17. So you're thinking the Law was destroyed?


"Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known."(Deuteronomy 11)

"If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD; Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance. Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee. Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed."(Deuteronomy 28)

"And He said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me."(Luke 24)

"For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"(Ephesians 2)

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."(Colossians 2)

"In that He saith, A new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."(Hebrews 8)

"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."(Galatians 4)

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. . . . Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."(Galatians 3)

"Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing."(Revelation 5)

"These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."(Revelation 11)

The Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the righteousness requirements of the whole law, and to Him and Him alone belong the blessings. And He took the curses for those who would believe in His name, as well. But the plagues which Moses speaks of as being part of the law are still in place, and still waiting to be fulfilled.

No one has ever kept the whole law without the sacrificial part, which is why Paul can call himself righteous under the law... he gave to the priests his sin offerings. Today, there is no temple and the law cannot even be pretended to be kept without adding to or deleting from the law... which Moses clearly says not to do. The letter to the Hebrews calls these pretended lawkeepers enemies of the cross and crucifiers of the Lord over and over again, because they break that law... which was only supposed to be a schoolteacher until grace had come. Because there is only one thing that the law ever taught, and that is: how very desperately we need to be saved from ourselves.

David learned that lesson, after years of saying that he meditated upon the law... he does the absolute worst he could do... and his bones fell in upon him. Job learned that very same thing, in a different way. And so do we all, until we learn to look at the author and finisher of our faith, and stop watching foods and festivals and days and rudiments of the world. The Prophets and the Apostles are what the new covenant is based upon, not the law, with the Lord our Righteousness as the cornerstone and the foundation and every beautiful thing that exists in this dying world. The Lord Jesus Christ is carrying that key of the house of David and is telling us plainly to return to Eden. Back to the time when we lived second by second, listening to the voice of the Lord in the cool of the evening. And back to the covenant of the Promise which was given to Abraham, and where God is so clearly seen to be keeping both sides of that covenant. Jesus came to confirm the covenant, of which He is the seed, and by Whom we are heirs if we are like Abraham by faith. There is no Moses go-between in this faith in which we stand. There is only the consuming fire to purge us of the dross, and make from us all that queen in Psalm 45... for He is thy Lord and worship thou Him.
"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. And why call ye Me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"--The Lord Jesus Christ
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Re: Denying the Divinity of Christ

Postby Kentucky » Mon May 04, 2015 9:39 pm

2ndWitness, do you know the difference between the law, statutes, judgments and the ordinances? It sounds like you're lumping the two together and then throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The ordinances were of the temple and Aaronic priesthood conducting animal sacrifices. That's what was nailed to the cross, not the moral and civil laws handed down from Moses. Christ fulfilled the law does not mean He abolished them. The New Covenant puts the law in our hearts and mind; the same law from Moses, not anything added to or diminished from. Don't you know that our body is now the Temple of God? How can God dwell within you if you have a lawless mentality?

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