Thoughts on Cursing

[Nayto]

Great points. I totally agree.

Seems more like elaboration than obfuscation.

[Kentucky]

But "cussing" is indeed relative, and to some extent it is a social construct. Of this I have no doubt. I would never want to "cuss" in front of children - although once upon a time in my youth I did so routinely and thoughtlessly. Especially in front of my own.

My immediate relative (my mom) washed my mouth out with soap on two occasions as a lad and promptly cured me of my own social construct lol.

That was when I learned that in the South, darned, hell and damned were cuss words. To me, a "damned Yankee", they are not, and they are still not. Darned is simply a substitute word, a kinder and gentler version of damned. I use hell as a noun representing the state of damnation.

If I use damned as an adjective in reference to a White brother or sister, then I am indeed cursing: for who am I to judge my brother? However, if I use damned as an adjective modifying nouns such as jew or negro or some other unseemly creature, am I not simply stating a fact? I believe that I am only stating a fact, and that we have an obligation to state such facts when the need arises. So to me "damned jew" and "damned mestizo" and "damned negro" (or that other 'n' word) are all simply statements of fact.

Well, that's a good point that is lost with some particular folks in CI who obviously don't know the Law and are quick to make false accusations against brethren, but maybe they themselves are not brothers. One example is calling somebody a false prophet, because they don't agree with their pet doctrine... something like full body immersion as the only mode of baptism. It's just more party politics, but it's really cursing someone as a matter of being a capital offense, punishable by death. And we don't hear a peep from these same people when it comes to a certain universalist who took the Mayan calendar seriously. And isn't cursing something witches do... casting aspersions?

By the way, TJ very succinctly made an excellent point (among others) about substitute words still being curses, although the substitute words themselves may not be profane.

I have to laugh every time I see asterisks in between the truly offensive cuss words as if that makes any difference; or the internet vogue of letters representing a profane phrase.

However if I label one of our brothers and sisters with such a word without good reason, then I certainly am using profanity, and I should be corrected. Any lie or slander is profane language, no matter the eloquence of the words chosen. One can find some very eloquent ways to utter some very foul things.

Now there are certain disgusting and also (usually) sexually explicit words and phrases which we as Christians should (normally) never have in our mouths. And similar words and phrases certainly were used in ancient Greece and Rome as well. Surely Paul had many of them in mind when he warned us about foul language.

Context is everything. There was an obscenity case before the Supreme Court years ago and one of the justice's saying, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that.
—Justice Potter Stewart, concurring opinion in Jacobellis v. Ohio 378 U.S. 184 (1964)

I thought I would cite these examples, where "cussing" is not really cursing. I recently made an illustration of George Washington's "black gentry" remark in my latest Saxon Messenger editorial. How many people completely missed the meaning of the euphemism? How better would his message have been understood if he simply told the truth, and said "damned jews"?

Different times and demographics. Perhaps what we think of as tame, was considered highly insulting.

I have long thought that "nice" language, veiled euphemisms, and the use of other kind ways to relate what needs to be said, sacrificing the conveyance of the plain raw truth for mere politesse, is one thing that has always gotten us into trouble. Such "acceptable" language is always taken advantage of by our enemies, who see it as a reflection of weakness and an opportunity for distortion.

Language is a funny thing. We've all heard 'It's not what you said, it's how you said it.' Hitler was so despised because he mastered a way of communicating with as many Germans as he could without class distinctions. He appealed to the white collar as much as the blue collar and with eloquent simplicity.

Imprecatory prayers by themselves are not curses. The Psalms are full of them. I cannot recount where David wishes that "the wicked" would repent, but only that they be destroyed. However, I would think that unrighteous imprecatory prayers are indeed curses.

That's what I was thinking earlier; that curses are an occult device (without cause) to bring harm, which emanates from non-White cultures. Something becoming of witch doctors not Christians.

If a damned jew did you wrong, you should pray that he be destroyed, that Yahweh avenge you. However if one of your brethren caused you harm, you should pray for his repentance. On the other hand if you pray that your brother be destroyed, are you not cursing him? In times of uncertainty, it is best - I think - to pray that God's justice and God's righteousness be fulfilled, along with God's vengeance.

But, what do we do about our own kindred (alleged) who learn the ways of the heathen and practice the dark arts of Kabalistic incantations?

I hope not to have obfuscated this issue, but I had a few things which I felt should be contributed.

You bring up some issues that need to be aired. CI has always had a fringe element of potty mouths (cussing) and weirdos involved in New Age imprecatory (cursing) ... we know it, when we hear it.

Mark

[TJ]

This was just a small testimony of my experience with cursing as a Godly woman.
The post you made was very welcomed by me and caused me to "think" and "appreciate" how the Father loves his children to help them be overcomers in a sick world where everything is fallen and contrary to his holiness.
Thanks TJ and Yahweh continue to bless that fiery woman you have!
Linda

Thanks for sharing your testimony here, Linda.

I heard a man speak about McDonald's billboards and the effect that they have. Everyone looks at them, understands that they're simplistic advertising, and believes that they themselves are unaffected. Yet, the only possible reason that those billboards endure, at exorbitant cost to McDonald's, is because they make LOTS of people show up and stand in line to hand over their cash.

He used this as an example to show how today's apostate culture affects us all in ways that are imperceptible to us. Even though we are savvy to the plots, and can see the Kike's influence, it is foolish to think that we are immune.

Deuteronomy 20:18
Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.

The Law warns of the consequence of letting the zuwr live amongst us. They are here, and Christians are being led away from Yahweh without even knowing it. The Law is Perfect. The sins of our fathers are upon us.

I can't partake of the culture without defiling and corrupting myself. We get tired, let our guard down, decide that it would be nice to just take in a movie, be entertained, and relax together. No matter how much we screen the content there is always something insidious. It always teaches us to exalt ourselves, always encourages lust, and afterwards I always notice a sharp upswing in my cursing.

I'm somewhat glad for it. In a way it's a blessing. I have some means to gauge that I'm being corrupted. It reminds us that there can be no relaxation. That we can never come to any amicable terms. That there is no middle ground.

When filth is pouring out of my face, I'm not praising and thanking Yahweh for His Grace.

Rejoice that you have a compass, and it tells you when you're walking in the wrong direction.

[TJ]

God's last name is not Damnit.

Scriptures against profanity.

Thank you for this fine work, Mark. It's a great direction to take this thread.

We intend to work through the list in some detail. I've got plenty of irons in the fire, so it won't be fast, but I'll post a summary of what we find in each one as we go through it.

[TJ]

Okay, I hate to interject into such a wonderful conversation.
... I hope not to have obfuscated this issue ...

You've got to be kidding. I want plenty of discourse on the topic. The first goal is to clarify my understanding and marshal my family into compliance. The second goal is to add diligence to a complete catechism.

I have been accused of using profane language for using certain words, such as whore and bastard. However those are words right out of the English Bible, and if I use those same words in the same contexts as they appear in the Word of God, how am I being profane?

I like simple definitions, because they help me see clearly. I loosely define sin as: "Any behavior that is contrary to Yahweh or Yashua." In the same way I would attempt to define profanity as: "Speech that is contrary to Yahweh or Yashua."

My assumption is that the persons accusing you of profanity in the above setting believe that profanity is: "Speech that is contrary to their self-exaltation," or, "speech that is contrary to their feeble attempts to win false converts to a false doctrine."

Basically, "If people cringe at it, it is profane." I'm not sure what doctrine this comes from, but it's nothing I've ever read in Christian Scripture.

I recently made an illustration of George Washington's "black gentry" remark in my latest Saxon Messenger editorial. How many people completely missed the meaning of the euphemism? How better would his message have been understood if he simply told the truth, and said "damned jews"?

I have long thought that "nice" language, veiled euphemisms, and the use of other kind ways to relate what needs to be said, sacrificing the conveyance of the plain raw truth for mere politesse, is one thing that has always gotten us into trouble. Such "acceptable" language is always taken advantage of by our enemies, who see it as a reflection of weakness and an opportunity for distortion.]

It is easy to reflect on events and imagine how differently things would be if a slight course correction had been made. If it wasn't that, it would have been something else. Even in the Garden of Eden the Devil was there. The only things that can stop it are perfect adherence to The Law, and His coming to deliver us. It will never stop until that day. Saying "damned jews" may have slowed their progress, but the struggle would have been the same.

I'm a fan of raw, to the point language. Unbridled, belly button to belly button exchanges get to the bottom of things in a hurry. That's more my natural state. It's efficient.
My natural state is not who I seek to be. I can go quite a ways in restraining myself before I overshoot too far in the other direction and begin watering down the message. The point is certainly valid in the general discussion.

"Sit down to a big chunk of pig's ass."
I intend to have a separate discussion with you about the dietary laws, and whether or not they still apply. In the mean time we've been adhering to them, because I'm not clear on it. No matter where the discussion ends, it's a simple exercise in Christian discipline.
We went to a Sunday brunch. The bacon and sausage were very tempting. The eggs looked good, but closer inspection revealed that there were small bits of diced ham in them. We wanted to eat these things, but did not.
"We're immensely blessed. Look at all these other wonderful things that are here for us to eat. If we can't control our impulses, and skip over these few things to enjoy our other blessings, then what use are we to Yahweh? Is this the feeble mettle that will bring about His Kingdom?"

Similarly, controlling our mouth and thoughts have become a matter of Christian discipline.
"How can I submit myself to Yahweh if I can't be measured in my speech?"

unrighteous imprecatory prayers are indeed curses.

Interesting. It fits my desire for simple and clear definitions. I'm going to chew on this one for a bit.

[Hunter]

How about saying well-known phrases with the word 'holy' in them which are used to express surprise, such as holy smokes, holy cow, holy crow, holy Toledo etc.? Would anyone view these terms as coarse speech? Could it even be construed as blasphemous - the reason being that the word 'Holy' should only be reserved in combination with or used (as possibly the original intention of the word) to describe Yahweh, Yahshua, His Spirit, His Anointed or things/words directly associated with Him, etc.?

I really don't know what to think, so that's why I'm asking. It seems harmless on the surface, but I don't exactly know how these phrases were infused into our everyday speech. Are they no more innocuous than saying dang or darn? What are your thoughts..., anyone?

[Nayto]

In my opinion using a word colloquially and outside of its actual meaning detracts from the impact of the word. This is something I do, just with other words.

[Hunter]

A couple more of these idioms or more precisely expletives are holy mackerel and holy moly. Now the problem is that expletives like these are possibly profane euphemisms or better described as minced oaths.

expletive (plural expletives)
Noun
1. A profane, vulgar term, notably a curse or obscene oath.
2. (linguistics) A word without meaning added to fill a syntactic position.
3. (linguistics) A word that adds to the strength of a phrase without affecting its meaning.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/expletive

Definition of minced oath
"[It] is a euphemistic expression formed by misspelling, mispronouncing, or replacing a part of a profane,
blasphemous, or taboo term to reduce the original term's objectionable characteristics. Some examples include "gosh" for God, "darn" for damn, and "heck" for Hell."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minced_oath


See what I'm getting at here? What ungodly language could some of these euphemistic interjections be veiling? There'll be more to follow.

[Hunter]

In my opinion using a word colloquially and outside of its actual meaning detracts from the impact of the word. This is something I do, just with other words.

That makes perfect sense. It just deadens the meaning/impact after a while.

For instance, the Batman series in the 1960's began doing this to the word holy. Adam West (Batman) and his fruity, boy-wonder sidekick were constantly throwing around the word with "holy this" or "holy that" catchphrases.

FYI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Kane
"Bob Kane (born Robert Kahn; October 24, 1915 – November 3, 1998) was an American comic book artist and writer, credited as the creator of the DC Comics superhero Batman..."

"Robert Kahn was born in New York City, New York. His parents, Augusta and Herman Kahn, an engraver,[1] were of Eastern European Jewish descent..."

[Hunter]

The following is concerning the expletives: holy mackerel and holy moly

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?all ... hmode=none

holy
Old English halig "holy, consecrated, sacred, godly," from Proto-Germanic *hailaga- (cf. Old Norse heilagr, Old Frisian helich "holy," Old Saxon helag, Middle Dutch helich, Old High German heilag, German heilig, Gothic hailags "holy"). Adopted at conversion for Latin sanctus.

Primary (pre-Christian) meaning is not possible to determine, but probably it was "that must be preserved whole or intact, that cannot be transgressed or violated," and connected with Old English hal (see health) and Old High German heil "health, happiness, good luck" (source of the German salutation Heil). Holy water was in Old English. Holy has been used as an intensifying word from 1837; used in expletives since 1880s (e.g. holy smoke, 1883, holy mackerel, 1876, holy cow, 1914, holy moly etc.), most of them euphemisms for holy Christ or holy Moses.

mackerel
edible fish, c.1300, from Old French maquerel "mackerel" (Modern French maquereau), of unknown origin but apparently identical with Old French maquerel "pimp, procurer, broker, agent, intermediary," a word from a Germanic source (cf. Middle Dutch makelaer "broker," from Old Frisian mek "marriage," from maken "to make"). The connection is obscure, but medieval people had imaginative notions about the erotic habits of beasts. The fish approach the shore in shoals in summertime to spawn. Exclamation holy mackerel is attested from 1876.

moly
1570s, fabulous magical herb with white flowers and black root, given by Hermes to Odysseus as protection against Circe's sorcery, of unknown origin.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/holy_mackerel

etymology
Recorded from 1803 with uncertain origin, but possibly a euphemism for Holy Mary, with Mackerel being a nickname for Catholics because they ate the fish on Fridays. Another suggested explanation is the practice of selling mackerel on Sundays in the seventeenth century (because its quality deteriorates rapidly), so it was known as a holy fish.

The following concerns holy smoke:
http://english.stackexchange.com/questi ... 2141#22141
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-hol1.htm

Results of looking up the term holy smoke in the Bible:
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch ... ersion=WYC

Wycliffe Bible
Revelation 8:4: And the smoke of the incenses of the prayers of the holy men ascended up from the angel's hand before God. [And the smoke of incenses of the prayers of hallows ascended up of the angel's hand before God.]

New Revised Standard Version
Numbers 18:17: But the firstborn of a cow, or the firstborn of a sheep, or the firstborn of a goat, you shall not redeem; they are holy. You shall dash their blood on the altar, and shall turn their fat into smoke as an offering by fire for a pleasing odor to the Lord;

Isaiah 65:4-6: who say, “Keep to yourself, do not come near me, for I am too holy for you.” These are a smoke in my nostrils, a fire that burns all day long.

As you can see from the above, the words 'holy' and 'smoke' are not paired together anywhere in the Bible - that I can find so far.