Scofield and Untermeyer

[MichaelAllen]

Is anyone aware of any documentation that exists (besides the testimony of Benjamin Freedman) that Scofield was in the back pocket of Untermeyer or various other jews? Obviously, his commentaries are enough to indict him, but I'm looking for something a non-conspiracy theorist would have to consider seriously.

This relationship is discussed at length on various forums or on websites in essay form, but none ever cite a source.

[Kentucky]

Is anyone aware of any documentation that exists (besides the testimony of Benjamin Freedman) that Scofield was in the back pocket of Untermeyer or various other jews? Obviously, his commentaries are enough to indict him, but I'm looking for something a non-conspiracy theorist would have to consider seriously.

This relationship is discussed at length on various forums or on websites in essay form, but none ever cite a source.

Pastor Elmore has given several sermons on their relationship. Try the search at http://fgcp.org

Mark

[EzraLB]

I checked out Pastor Elmore's essay on Scofield, but it lacked any specific scholarly citations. I've never seen any "smoking gun" evidence connecting Scofield to Untermyer (or Untermeyer). Their connection seems circumstantial--through membership in the Lotus Club in New York City. I don't know where the Untermeyer papers and correspondence are held, but if there were letters exchanged between the two, it might be found there--though I know of no researcher who has looked into it.

It seems that the most exhaustive book on the Scofield Bible is "The Incredible Scofield and His Book" by Joseph M. Canfield. I think the evidence he offers for a relationship between Scofield and Untermeyer is, again, circumstantial and not documented.

I think "conspiracy theorists" have made Scofield into a far more sinister figure than he actually was. His Dispensationalism was heavily influenced by John Nelson Darby--and if you actually read the original notes in the early editions of Scofield Bible, they aren't nearly as pro-Zionist as people have been lead to believe.

What we need to understand about the Scofield Bible is that Oxford University Press owned the copyright, not Scofield, and he received royalties during his lifetime, but full ownership was retained by OUP. It's important to note that AFTER Scofield's death, OUP continued to edit the Bible in subsequent editions, making it more and more overtly pro-zionist and anti-arab. It wasn't Scofield himself who did this.

From what I've read, Cyrus Scofield was merely a useful idiot, not a knowing insider that was part of a vast zionist conspiracy. I seriously doubt Scofield was even aware of the work of the likes of Theodor Herzl and Chaim Weizmann. There can be little doubt that Untermeyer acted as a liaison between Scofield and the British zionists at Oxford University, who were far more influential in promoting zionist propaganda to the American evangelical movement, which really accelerated only after WWII and the founding of the nation-state of Israel.

[MichaelAllen]

Ezra, wasn't Scofield a known forgerer?

I think the testimony of Benjamin Freedman is probably reliable because Freedman ran in that circle, but it would be a better case if, as you said, some sort of minutes or correspondences were found.

[EzraLB]

MichaelAllen,
I think we've all read about Cyrus Scofield's alleged criminal activities, such as forging checks. I read somewhere that the cases against him were eventually thrown out, but I can't be sure. Of course, he is also alleged to have abandoned his first wife. But I'm not sure that these incidences should be used as de facto proof that he was part of a criminal zionist conspiracy, as many seem to suggest.

If you're looking for a connection between Scofield and Untermyer, you might also look into Scofield's papers and letters--there might be some correspondence between the two, but I doubt you'd find any overt admissions by either that they were self-consciously working on a pro-Zionist Bible.

What do we know about Benjamin Freedman's past? We assume that just because he spoke out against the Jews that he is somehow moral, ethical, and reliable--but, after all, he was a wealthy Jew, and it's hard for me to imagine that a wealthy Jew like Freedman always "earned" his money in the most honest ways. If he was allowed into the innermost circles of Jewish power, he must have been corrupt on some level.

From my perspective, I have a lot of problems with Freedman's supposed exposes--like all Jews, he gives you some truths, but slips in a lot of lies and misdirections at the same time. For example, he puts forth the myth of the "Good Jew/Bad Jew" along with the Khazar Jew and the "legitimate" Jew. He also converted to Christianity, which is a dangerous myth that many patriots have fallen for, just as they've fallen for "Brother" Nathaniel Kapner.

After all, what original ideas did Freedman truly expose? He was speaking in the early 1960s about how the Jews were behind the Balfour Declaration in WWI and the boycott in WWII--both of these truths were well known to the National Socialist very early on. The Jew-Khazar connection was already known in the 19th century.

The same can be said for the revelations of Myron Fagan, another "turn-coat" Jew who is afforded a lot of credibility among patriots. I have some serious problems with his work too--he offers some obvious truths, but he also provides a lot of misdirections and can send people down rabbit holes, especially concerning the Masons.

I think it would be worthwhile for Bill to do a detailed critique of the work of both these Jews, as patriots seem to give them a free pass and rarely question their reliability on larger issues. Freedman and Fagan were both Jews, and at the end of the day, even if they "converted" to Christianity, there is no truth in them.

[wmfinck]

Clifton compiled some data on Scofield and keeps it here, but it is based on the sources EzraLB has mentioned, which are not very well documented:
http://emahiser.christogenea.org/Recommended/Scofield%20Data.pdf
However it seems that some things would be difficult-to-impossible to document.

In fact, I have often seen the club in New York where Untermyer and Scofield are said to have shared a membership called the "Lotus Club", as Clifton also has it, and it is really the "Lotos Club".
http://www.lotosclub.org/

The first question which should be asked is this: what would a legitimate Christian pastor want to do with a place like the Lotos Club?

The Dallas Theological Semetary mentions Scofield's residence in New York, but does not give a lot of details. They also claim to have a few - only a few - of Scofield's letters, but the letters are evidently not online.
http://library.dts.edu/Pages/TL/Special/scofield.shtml

While I am certain that I have probably mentioned the alleged Untermyer connection, my criticism of Scofield comes simply because his work was friendly to the Jews, and for that reason alone it was well accepted, and has stayed on store shelves and has been promoted all of this time.

Could a real Christian Bible with commentary stay on Jewish-controlled store shelves and not be criticized by Jews for a hundred years?

[Staropramen]

I think it would be worthwhile for Bill to do a detailed critique of the work of both these Jews, as patriots seem to give them a free pass and rarely question their reliability on larger issues. Freedman and Fagan were both Jews, and at the end of the day, even if they "converted" to Christianity, there is no truth in them.

If necessary I have the actual phonograph records of the famous Freedman Willard Hotel speech. I made a direct digital transfer so I can provide the most complete source in the best possible quality. I have both the complete speech and the Q&A session.

These discs are insanely rare not just because there were very few copies pressed but like most right-wing patriot LPs from that era there was no album cover. Add to that the fact that the LP labels have no information on them that indicates the record's recorded content. I only obtained these because they were in a large collection of right-wing records that I purchased.

[MichaelAllen]

Ezra,
That's right man. Turn coat jews usually have some personal vendetta against their own community and their reasons for exposure of jewish criminality is as a means of retaliation for some wrong against them from within their group. Has any jew ever come out and warned whites specifically that we are being targeted because jews are antiChrist demons? I doubt it. It's always clouded in the paradigm of universalism and equality, which is a false antithesis. The synthesis is, whites get hoodwinked into thinking some jews aren't wicked.

I'll take their admissions though gladly... but at the end of the day, at least for my purposes, it's basically, “Thanks, but you still aren't welcome. I'm sure you understand... devil."

[brucebohn]

I am inclined to beleive that our Father has brought forth
these so called " Self Hating Jews" and their revelations.
There will be NO excuse when we stand before our Father.
Although they work in secrecy, the truth is there for all to see,
should you have the "eyes and ears"...

[Kentucky]

I am inclined to beleive that our Father has brought forth
these so called " Self Hating Jews" and their revelations.
There will be NO excuse when we stand before our Father.
Although they work in secrecy, the truth is there for all to see,
should you have the "eyes and ears"...

God has His ways of leaking knowledge lol.

Mark