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Magic/k

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Re: Magic/k

Postby Nayto » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:00 pm

bahr wrote:Personally, I see the biblical episode with pigs as an allegory. We are all, in this society, and at different degrees of course, possessed by "demons" -- that is, the state of mind of bastards, because they are everywhere among us (and in control of the society), and their influence is very great on us.

The allegory would be that the more we listen to this world/society, the more we are polluted in our minds (the more we are "possessed"). Christ, by projecting this state of mind in pigs, make them to commit suicide. That is exactly what we are doing when we listen the satanic powers: we become, by our behavior, like pigs ourselves, like impure animals, and finally, racially, we commit suicide.

There is no need to imagine "supernatural entities" in this episode, in my opinion. Let's just stay away from the spirits of bastards. After all, Christ resume our duty perfectly:

On which account “Come out from the midst of them and be separated,” says the Prince, and “do not be joined to the impure, and I will admit you”


A fair point. I'd suggest having a look at this as well:

http://kinsmanredeemer.com/madmen-gadera
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Re: Magic/k

Postby Kentucky » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:56 pm

bahr wrote:Personally, I see the biblical episode with pigs as an allegory.

That is the essence of what I gleaned from my research. The Roman soldiers of the 10th Regiment, who went under the banner of the boar, occupied this territory and were allegorized so as to not incite retaliation against the Christians. He (the lunatic) was living under the name/authority of the Roman "legion."

The allegory would be that the more we listen to this world/society, the more we are polluted in our minds (the more we are "possessed").

And all of the prophetic beast empires are allegorically various animals. We could just as well say they are enamored with the star status of celebrity politicians (American Idol-atry), who are actors on the stage. How often do we hear about Obama and his followers as "chimps" because their behavior is like lower primates? Some people must be so entertained by them, that they want to posses the same ugly characteristics. "All the world's a stage" and "all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world" I John 2:16. The New World Order wants your mind. If we should believe their lies and the Big Lie, then you can be assured that God will send "strong delusion" or as Bill translates it in the CNT "an operation of error." I would say the adversary specializes in psychological operations i.e. PSYOPS. In my humble opinion, we should never accept any substitutes for the Christ/Anointed (as many will come in His name), because Jesus said, "All power [authority] is given unto Me in heaven and in earth." In other words: no vacancy, especially from cheap imitations.


when we listen the satanic powers: we become, by our behavior, like pigs ourselves, like impure animals, and finally, racially, we commit suicide.

And that really is the point: each of us are responsible for our own sins; there are no scapegoats. "He that is not with Me is against Me; and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth abroad" Mt. 12:20 KJV.

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Re: Magic/k

Postby Joe » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:36 am

While I am not fully convinced either way I was thinking about this a lot today.
Bahr said
Personally, I see the biblical episode with pigs as an allegory


The only problem I have with this is where do we draw the line. Some people might determine that the miracles of Christ are simply allegories and didn't actually happen. Whereas I strongly believe He did perform miracles, and that they are significant.

I didn't fully understand Mark's paper 'The madmen of Gadera' when I first read it.
The thing I can't get past is that I cannot see Christ humouring a man. It seems like a callous or guileful way to deal with the mad man, I think Christ was sincere. I am not sure about Mark's view on the 'appointed time'. Though Mark's point about the legion was compelling.

I have more work to do, but that is where I am at.
...and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
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Re: Magic/k

Postby bahr » Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:30 am

The only problem I have with this is where do we draw the line. Some people might determine that the miracles of Christ are simply allegories and didn't actually happen. Whereas I strongly believe He did perform miracles, and that they are significant.


An allegory is not necessarily a fiction! All signs (or "miracles") in the Bible are there to help us to understand our Father's will, His Spirit. For example, to heal the blind is an allegory: the blind represent Israel, cured by Christ. Same thing for the widow and the orphan: Israel is the widow and every child of Israel is an orphan when he has not Yahweh-Christ. Christ walking on the water is representative of His return, when He will "walk" on the sea of mixed multitudes, crushing them, etc. Every sign is significant in Scriptures. Does that mean these miracles did not happen physically? Of course not!

This is a big problem in our modern societies. The materialistic-modern man is generally unable to comprehend true symbols, because they are aimed at the spirit, not at the flesh. And, in that regard, we should thank Bill for helping us to better understand the antic mindset through the classics. It is really essential for any Bible student! Without that understanding, we would be stuck in that awful modern weltanschauung, like the "judeos".
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Re: Magic/k

Postby Joe » Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:12 pm

Well that is a good way to think about it, I am especially moved by the idea of our Sovereign God walking upon the multitude.

And the sea was no more.
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Re: Magic/k

Postby wmfinck » Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:23 pm

Much of the Bible is allegory. This is especially true where we have parables. Additionally, many historical events are also described in parables of sorts, with allegorical language representing different aspects of the event in question.

The serpent existed, but it was not a literal snake. Jezebel existed, but she is also used allegorically in the Revelation.

But many Biblical accounts are indeed narrative records of actual events. These are represented as historical narratives, where you see identifiable historical figures walking about and interacting with other identifiable historical figures in identifiable historical places. Where the records are contemporary, they must be accepted as real, historical events.

It is patently unfair to label any particular event which is presented as historical narrative as an "allegory" without good reason to do so, and even if the historical narrative is an allegory, or a "type" as such allegories are often labelled, that does not mean that they did not happen as they are literally related.

David was a "type" for Christ. Joshua was also a "type" for Christ. But the historical David and the historical Joshua both existed. So did the historical Goliath and the historical Og of Bashan, the giants that they slew.

In the account of the madman of Gadara, the swine are real, the swineherds are real, the city is real, the man infected with the demons is real, and the water is real. The apostles described as being with Christ are real, and Christ Himself is real. Even the boat they used to get there was real.

The demons, whatever you may want to think of them, are legion, because that is a term which represents the concept of many. That is how the apostles themselves described its meaning in their accounts.

The demons spoke to Christ from out of the man, as the apostles told the story. When Christ permitted the demons to leave the man for the swine as they had requested, the entering into the swine by the demons caused the swine to rush down the embankment and drown.

Real swine drowned in real water, and the real swineherds ran and reported what had happened to the real populace of a real city.

If everything else is real, then the demons, whatever one wants to thinks they may be, must also be real.

The apostles called these entities which they described as leaving the man and entering into the swine demons, and I would prefer to understand the word for demon in the manner in which it was understood in the comman Greek language in which they wrote.

Simply because one may acknowledge the possibility of there being demons, does not make one an idolater. Otherwise, what is Christ saying in Revelation 16:14 or 18:2?

It is true, that many idols were demons. But some idols were wood and stone. Because some idols are demons does not mean that all demons are idols, or if one demon is an idol to one man, that does not mean that the same demon is an idol to another man.

Some niggers are idols to some men. But not all niggers are idols, and - I would hope - no nigger is an idol to any of us.

When all the niggers are gone, and I profess a belief that niggers existed, does that make me an idolater?

The story of the madman of Gadara is a historical narrative, and we should accept it as being literally true. But it can still be an allegory relating a greater lesson.

Where we may disagree, is on the nature of what constitutes a demon.

And if we disagree there, that does not mean that we should ridicule each other, or beat each other over the head. I think we all know that our primary struggle here in this world is two-fold: first with the foul spirits of embodied demons, and also with our own weaknesses.

It is my opinion, that since demons are not fully explained in Scripture, at least from our modern scientific viewpoint, that we can disagree on their essence, and we shall continue to do so until it no longer matters, or until we are all better informed.

But we should not disagree on their existence. Scripturally, a demon is indeed a tangible entity, even if its existence remains outside of our personal experience. The word demon appears over 60 time in New Testament Scripture, and every time it appears it is a tangible entity.

Learning comes through reading, but in some cases experience is also a necessary component of understanding, and we have all read different things and we all have different experiences.

Brotherly love demands that we understand our differences, and we can disagree over these peripheral issues without lambasting one another.

HeiligeSchriftLeser is prone to ridiculing those who do not agree with him over the small things. That is neither Christian nor brotherly, and it is hostile to the purpose of this forum.

HeiligeSchriftLeser is also prone to evaluating everything through the lens of his own tormented life, and while in some cases personal experience may be important to having a full understanding of something, personal experince certainly should never be placed before Scripture.

What is absolutely certain, is that there are embodied demons as well. We should not seek to mimic them.
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Re: Magic/k

Postby Kentucky » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:49 pm

wmfinck wrote:Much of the Bible is allegory. This is especially true where we have parables. Additionally, many historical events are also described in parables of sorts, with allegorical language representing different aspects of the event in question.

The serpent existed, but it was not a literal snake. Jezebel existed, but she is also used allegorically in the Revelation.

But many Biblical accounts are indeed narrative records of actual events. These are represented as historical narratives, where you see identifiable historical figures walking about and interacting with other identifiable historical figures in identifiable historical places. Where the records are contemporary, they must be accepted as real, historical events.

It is patently unfair to label any particular event which is presented as historical narrative as an "allegory" without good reason to do so, and even if the historical narrative is an allegory, or a "type" as such allegories are often labelled, that does not mean that they did not happen as they are literally related.

David was a "type" for Christ. Joshua was also a "type" for Christ. But the historical David and the historical Joshua both existed. So did the historical Goliath and the historical Og of Bashan, the giants that they slew.

In the account of the madman of Gadara, the swine are real, the swineherds are real, the city is real, the man infected with the demons is real, and the water is real. The apostles described as being with Christ are real, and Christ Himself is real. Even the boat they used to get there was real.

Thanks for your input Bill. Isn't it possible for historical events, as recorded in the Bible, to incorporate figures of speech (perhaps "allegory" is misapplied here) for one reason or another? Probably the most combined literary device for using various forms of expression is the narrative in Genesis. We believe the premise of Creation and can synthesize most of the principles found there, but the language itself is open to a myriad of interpretations because some words are not literal. The parables were used not to be flowery, but because Christ did not want some to know or understand or be healed, lest they convert to what He said (Mt. 13:13-15). By the same token, the story from Gadera was most certainly and without dispute a real event. However, because of the politics, He had to be careful in the way He told the story, lest the Roman occupation, being completely embarrassed by the rout of madmen, would react in way that would cause more harm than good. In other words, Christ speaking diplomatically and with perfect precision, which would not be entirely grasped by Roman authorities, and therefore dismissed as some kind of religious rambling, protecting the Christians from persecution, as if they needed even more. Surely the intent of the story was not to impress upon the 1st century church the power of demons, which it has become today, but the power of Christ to heal... even mentally disturbed people, for which there was no medical nomenclature at the time that they could ascribe it to.

The demons, whatever you may want to think of them, are legion, because that is a term which represents the concept of many. That is how the apostles themselves described its meaning in their accounts.

What concerns me is not so much the plurality or singularity of what this word means as much as finding a specifically stated theology about demons, which other non-Christian religions are more than happy to provide. The RCC will fill volumes of hierarchies of demons and angels and how Rome is in the thick of it protecting humanity, but the Bible is significantly silent about any such things.

The demons spoke to Christ from out of the man, as the apostles told the story.

That would seem to be the crux of the matter, because Christ said in Mark 5:8, "For He had said to him." The "him" would seem to be the man, not the demon. This is the pivotal conversation as to whether we are to believe there is a third party in the dialogue. In my humble opinion, the demons/unclean spirits never actually say anything in the narrative; it’s always the man himself who speaks.

If everything else is real, then the demons, whatever one wants to thinks they may be, must also be real.

Yes, I agree. Whatever they may be, they are not an illusion or hallucination, albeit the latter may be what is seen by dirty preachers from the South on drugs. lol

and I would prefer to understand the word for demon in the manner in which it was understood in the comman Greek language in which they wrote.

Exactly. Did not Greek culture indulge in the common mythologies of the day, which used the word 'daimonion.'? The etymology of which opens a big can of worms, not necessarily dovetailing with the popular contemporary interpretation of Mt. 8:23-28, Mark 5:1-20 and Luke 8:26-39.

Simply because one may acknowledge the possibility of there being demons, does not make one an idolater. Otherwise, what is Christ saying in Revelation 16:14 or 18:2?

I think He's saying 'diabolos' in the sense of false accuser, slanderer and liar, who has taken the Big Lie to such extraordinary heights, that they think of themselves as God i.e. the Messiah. Look at how much mileage the jew has gotten in fomenting wars through the exigency of bearing false witness; it truly is the spirit of evil. When Babylon falls, I hope to God it's talking about Wall Street, Big Pharma, synagogues of satan and all the rest of the two legged bipeds that make life on earth a living hell. Those who support such a satanic system must surely be idolaters, the modern equivalent of wood and stone carvings.

Where we may disagree, is on the nature of what constitutes a demon.

And if we disagree there, that does not mean that we should ridicule each other, or beat each other over the head. I think we all know that our primary struggle here in this world is two-fold: first with the foul spirits of embodied demons, and also with our own weaknesses.

It is my opinion, that since demons are not fully explained in Scripture, at least from our modern scientific viewpoint, that we can disagree on their essence, and we shall continue to do so until it no longer matters, or until we are all better informed.

Spoken as an 'ambassador of Christ' Bill. It should be a non-issue, as it has nothing to do with my salvation. I don't think on the day of Judgment, the first question posed to me will be "Why didn't you believe in demons?" For some people it is the most important thing in their theology, which makes me wonder what their priorities are in life? It's interesting that those who are obsessed with demons, have nothing else better to do with their lives than demonize those who don't believe like they do. A bit of irony there.

But we should not disagree on their existence. Scripturally, a demon is indeed a tangible entity, even if its existence remains outside of our personal experience. The word demon appears over 60 time in New Testament Scripture, and every time it appears it is a tangible entity.

It's the intangible ones in churchianity that give demons a bad name.

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Re: Magic/k

Postby Joe » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:02 am

Bill said
When all the niggers are gone, and I profess a belief that niggers existed, does that make me an idolater?


I have considered that when our sins are blotted-out, that we may not remember niggers.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Great insight from Mark and Bill, some good has come from this discussion.
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Re: Magic/k

Postby Staropramen » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:31 am

Joe wrote:I have considered that when our sins are blotted-out, that we may not remember niggers.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Great insight from Mark and Bill, some good has come from this discussion.


I think those passages refer to Yahweh not holding we who are repentant accountable for our sins rather than a complete loss of memory.
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Re: Magic/k

Postby Kentucky » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:26 pm

I'd like to point out one more thing and that is the jewish accusation that Jesus was a magician and that He did not perform miracles. Christians believe Christ healed by supernatural power. Therefore, the accusation made against Christ in Mt. 12:24, that He did it through Beelzebub, if we are to understand that Beelzebub was a jewish invention, was an illusion or trick i.e. magic. When Christ responded to their gobbledygook, making them sound like idiots, which they were, He clearly delineated the difference between magic and miracle, between God and non-existent gods. After all, the bottom line of casting out devils, demons, evil spirits etc is to remove them, is it not? Ever see a dog chasing its tail? The point is, jewish magicians cannot do what Christ did, because they don't have the power of God to do such things. They have to go to great lengths in order to create the illusion. There are no other supernatural entities to assist the magician, because there is only one supernatural entity in the universe. But, for the sake of argument, if such other worldly creatures did exist, couldn't Christ wipe them all out at His will? Of course, He could and He empowers us to dismiss them as well, whether they exist or are a figment of our imagination. Who needs them? Really, who can't live without them? For one thing, it would put a big dent in the genre of Hollywood.

The Good News is Christ telling us, "I tell you a truth, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also. And he will do even greater works than these, because I go to the Father” John 14:12. This hasn't yet materialized, but I hope it is near. Hope is the only thing stronger than fear. A little hope is effective; a lot of hope is dangerous. "It's dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong" - Voltaire (my next sermon ;-)).

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