Israelite Marriage Ceremony?

[Richard1]

Good comments, thanks guys.

[Kentucky]

Some good things were said in this thread that are related:

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=6846&p=20425&hilit=consummation#p20425

Mark

[Richard1]

Thanks Mark, I'll check it out.

[worms]

From what I have read on this website and in the bible itself it is pretty clear to me that once you sleep with a (virgin) woman or widow you are married.

[Nayto]

From what I have read on this website and in the bible itself it is pretty clear to me that once you sleep with a (virgin) woman or widow you are married.

Indeed. It seems that in the Mosaic law if such a thing were to happen, marriage would become mandatory for those two individuals in the community.

[wmfinck]

It says in the law that even if a man rapes a virgin, he is to pay the father a dowry and keep her for a wife. Of course, the law only applies to Israel.

[Kentucky]

It says in the law that even if a man rapes a virgin, he is to pay the father a dowry and keep her for a wife. Of course, the law only applies to Israel.

The key word in the Law, regarding rape, in Deut. 22:20-29, is "force" (V. 25) and that pertained to a married woman. But, to a virgin we do not read "force." Does this mean God condones rape? That's what atheists and agnostics love to imply. The death penalty is ever apparent in sexual matters. If a damsel is sleeping around i.e. lost her virginity and unbetrothed, she is to be executed (v. 20-21).

But, the verses in question (28-29) deals with a damsel who has not lost her virginity (until, evidently, the day they are "found") and says of the man "lay hold on her," not "force," then the death penalty is suspended for some reason. I think this is probably two young lovers who had sexual intercourse without the courtesy to their parents and/or community to announce their intentions before consummation. In other words, there weren't two witnesses to establish the matter.

Are we to believe that a biblical marriage is secret and nobody's business? The morality and wisdom of God in a situation like this is what we call in modern times a 'shotgun marriage.' The father was the covering of his daughter and therefore just as violated as her and the plaintiff in the case, receiving the monetary judgment.

I don't know how much 50 shekels of silver would have been in that day, but I suspect that it was a great deal of money and a deterrent for promiscuous behavior. God's Law states that if restitution is not forthcoming, the debtor/sinner was to be put to death. I cannot find anywhere in Scripture where verses 28-29 were ever implemented and thus the Law is not a sanction for rape, promiscuity or a man choosing his wife with this method, but rather a serious deterrent.

This would suggest that marriage is not sexual intercourse. That some sort of witnessing as to whom God has joined together precedes the physical union. Otherwise, the Law in verse 28-29 would not be addressing the issue. I might be missing something, but I don't know what it is lol.

Mark

[EzraLB]

This would suggest that marriage is not sexual intercourse. That some sort of witnessing as to whom God has joined together precedes the physical union. Otherwise, the Law in verse 28-29 would not be addressing the issue. I might be missing something, but I don't know what it is lol.

If some sort of "witnessing" ceremony were commonplace--and the rule rather than the exception--one would reasonably expect, given the number of marriages mentioned in Scripture, that they would be mentioned explicitly and repeatedly. I would think that we wouldn't be left to merely infer--or speculate--about their importance. But then again, I may have missed something, no doubt.

[wmfinck]

It says in the law that even if a man rapes a virgin, he is to pay the father a dowry and keep her for a wife. Of course, the law only applies to Israel.

The key word in the Law, regarding rape, in Deut. 22:20-29, is "force" (V. 25) and that pertained to a married woman. But, to a virgin we do not read "force." Does this mean God condones rape? That's what atheists and agnostics love to imply. The death penalty is ever apparent in sexual matters. If a damsel is sleeping around i.e. lost her virginity and unbetrothed, she is to be executed (v. 20-21).

I must beg to differ. The Hebrew word taphas (#8610) which appears as "lay hold" in Deuteronomy 22:28 implies the taking of something by force. One example is of the taking of a city, Deuteronomy 20:19, and also Joshua 8:8. There are many others.

The virgin of vv. 20-21 was sleeping around, and got married under the pretense of being a virgin. She is an adulteress and should be stoned, because she was a slut who sought to deceive a man.

[Kentucky]

It says in the law that even if a man rapes a virgin, he is to pay the father a dowry and keep her for a wife. Of course, the law only applies to Israel.

The key word in the Law, regarding rape, in Deut. 22:20-29, is "force" (V. 25) and that pertained to a married woman. But, to a virgin we do not read "force." Does this mean God condones rape? That's what atheists and agnostics love to imply. The death penalty is ever apparent in sexual matters. If a damsel is sleeping around i.e. lost her virginity and unbetrothed, she is to be executed (v. 20-21).

I must beg to differ. The Hebrew word taphas (#8610) which appears as "lay hold" in Deuteronomy 22:28 implies the taking of something by force. One example is of the taking of a city, Deuteronomy 20:19, and also Joshua 8:8. There are many others.

You're right, I looked in the LXX and the word was "force." This would suggest (perhaps) that the virgin's state of mind was less than willing and consensual, although "the betrothed damsel cried," there is no mention of the "virgin, which is not betrothed" similarly crying. "There was none to save" the betrothed damsel, but the virgin and her rapist were "found." It just seems to me that there's more than meets the eye here. If a virgin is raped, why must she again be forced to be his wife? Do two forces make a right? There had to be an opt-out for the virgin. These verses do not say whether the rapes were violent or that maybe a knife was at her throat, probably because there's a plethora of circumstances. When it says "and she shall be his wife," it suggests that perhaps it was more than a crime of passion and lust, but that there was some form of premeditation for both of them. Regardless, the deed was such that it violated God's Law and the man forfeited his right to a writ of divorcement with her i.e. "he may not put her away all his days." Whatever the various situations, there seems to be a very fine line between the notion that marriage is sexual intercourse and yet in Deut. 22:28 everything revolves around sexual intercourse. In both cases, they become husband and wife.

It's as clear as mud also in Deut. 28:30 "Thou shalt betroth a wife and another man shall lie with her." This is the section in Ch. 28 about curses and verse 30 is a judgment from God. Added to the thought of this verse is a vineyard planted, that one will not drink the fruits of. But, what does "betroth" mean? As far as I can ascertain it means "engage" and is definitely something that precedes "marriage" or what I would call consummation. In Deut. 20:7 it says, "And what man is there that hath betrothed a wife, and hath not taken her? let him go and return unto his house, lest he die in the battle, and another man take her.” Is "betrothal" a doctrine or teaching that has been done away with? Can we ascertain that betrothing is a commitment or an agreement or even a solemn covenant between a man and a woman before marriage? Could that have been the missing circumstances of Deut. 22:28 that caused a Law to address the issue? Does Hosea 2:19-20 come before or after "marriage" i.e. sexual intercourse?: "And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord."

The virgin of vv. 20-21 was sleeping around, and got married under the pretense of being a virgin. She is an adulteress and should be stoned, because she was a slut who sought to deceive a man.

Yeah, it's like the common misnomer, "Evil prospers when good men do nothing." When good men do nothing, they are no longer good.

Mark