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You're never too old to start

Gardening, Homesteading & Other Wholesome Topics

Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Joe » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:27 am

It was quite impressive that that guy's bone healed to the extent where it pushed the pins out and it is great that he doesn't have to live with the metal in his leg. The doctors do not even care to realize that weightlifting increases bone density, which could probably help many of their patients.

Here is another amazing benefit of weightlifting, it may cut cancer risk by 40%.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/commen ... es_cancer/

I did calculate my protein consumption and even a high-protein diet falls short of most estimates. I went to try and find some protein supplements without soy or artificial sweeteners today but it appears most brands do have all kinds of fillers and other garbage. So I will check a health-food store.

Lastly I just wanted to add that most sites say you can only gain 2.5 pounds a month in muscle. So I was a bit worried. But I found that many body builders suggest that you can gain much more than that.

For example, this site says you can gain as much as 10 pounds a month, as a beginner:
http://www.muscleandfitness.com/workout ... -4-weeks-1
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Nayto » Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:23 pm

Joe wrote:It was quite impressive that that guy's bone healed to the extent where it pushed the pins out and it is great that he doesn't have to live with the metal in his leg. The doctors do not even care to realize that weightlifting increases bone density, which could probably help many of their patients.

Here is another amazing benefit of weightlifting, it may cut cancer risk by 40%.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/commen ... es_cancer/


Indeed! The health benefits of strength training are immense. I didn't know about the cancer one though.

Here's an interesting article written by one of the Starting Strength coaches:

http://startingst reng th.com/articles/barbell_medicine_sullivan.pdf -- Close spaces to fix the link.

Joe wrote:I did calculate my protein consumption and even a high-protein diet falls short of most estimates. I went to try and find some protein supplements without soy or artificial sweeteners today but it appears most brands do have all kinds of fillers and other garbage. So I will check a health-food store.


Yes, most of the supplements have artificial sweeteners. There are three options:

1. You could get one of the very expensive brands which use natural products. I must reiterate that these are damn expensive. I think the cheapest one is Optimum Nutrition's natural range (http://www.optimum nutrit ion.com/products/naturally-flav ored-100-whey-gold-standard-p-202.html -- Just remove the space to fix the link.)
2. You can buy pure whey which is cheaper, but the down side is that it tastes revolting.
3. Just eat more meat.

Joe wrote:Lastly I just wanted to add that most sites say you can only gain 2.5 pounds a month in muscle. So I was a bit worried. But I found that many body builders suggest that you can gain much more than that.

For example, this site says you can gain as much as 10 pounds a month, as a beginner:
http://www.muscleandfitness.com/workout ... -4-weeks-1


It depends on your sex, age and training history. Take a 14 - 16 year old boy whose hormones are at their peak. They can gain massive amounts of weight and strength. If they eat enough and train correctly they can gain more strength than a man on steroids. Then take a 50 year old man. Very decent strength gains are possible, but they will definitely be slow.

The amount of weight you could and should be increasing by is a factor of the amount of strength it is possible for you to gain. If you are gaining weight and you are not getting stronger, you are just getting fat. If you are gaining weight and there are linear gains in strength as well, that means you will be gaining muscle as well. Usually in an optimal strength and weight gain scenario you will be gaining about 60% muscle and 40% fat. It's just how the body works; if you want to gain muscle you must be prepared to gain fat. If you want to lose fat you must be prepared to lose muscle. You can modify training and diet to optimize results to suit you, but you will always have to live by those rules. It's why I hate losing fat, because I hate the strength loss that goes with it, LOL. Having a lean body is good if you want to be vain or if you are interested in calisthenics as well, but don't let society tell you that a six pack is mandatory.

For a beginner at your age I think 700g a week is fine initially, so long as you are getting strength that goes with it. As strength gains slow down eventually, your weight gain must slow down as well. You must even decide at some point to lose a bunch of the fat picked up. That's up to you.
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Joe » Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:49 am

I don't think artificial sweeteners could be counted as food, and know it is probably not strictly 'pharmakeia' but it is a similar problem, especially if food is to be our medicine, which I think it should be. I will have to avoid that, and just see how I go. Apparently xylitol is natural though.

I enjoy weightlifting, I no longer have back problems from when I tore the muscles in my back. And so I am not looking to get a six-pack, that is not my goal. Discipline and health :D

It is only one study.
Background: We examined the associations between muscular strength, markers of overall and central adiposity, and cancer mortality in men.

Methods: A prospective cohort study including 8,677 men ages 20 to 82 years followed from 1980 to 2003. Participants were enrolled in The Aerobics Centre Longitudinal Study, the Cooper Institute in Dallas, Texas. Muscular strength was quantified by combining 1-repetition maximal measures for leg and bench presses. Adiposity was assessed by body mass index (BMI), percent body fat, and waist circumference.

Results: Cancer death rates per 10,000 person-years adjusted for age and examination year were 17.5, 11.0, and 10.3 across incremental thirds of muscular strength (P = 0.001); 10.9, 13.4, and 20.1 across BMI groups of 18.5-24.9, 25.0-29.9, and ≥30 kg/m2, respectively (P = 0.008); 11.6 and 17.5 for normal (<25%) and high percent body fat (≥25%), respectively (P = 0.006); and 12.2 and 16.7 for normal (≤102 cm) and high waist circumference (>102 cm), respectively (P = 0.06). After adjusting for additional potential confounders, hazard ratios (95% confidence intervals) were 1.00 (reference), 0.65 (0.47-0.90), and 0.61 (0.44-0.85) across incremental thirds of muscular strength, respectively (P = 0.003 for linear trend). Further adjustment for BMI, percent body fat, waist circumference, or cardiorespiratory fitness had little effect on the association. The associations of BMI, percent body fat, or waist circumference with cancer mortality did not persist after further adjusting for muscular strength (all P ≥ 0.1).

Conclusions: Higher levels of muscular strength are associated with lower cancer mortality risk in men, independent of clinically established measures of overall and central adiposity, and other potential confounders. (Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 2009;18(5):1468–76)
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Joe » Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:57 am

I hope my story of discovery is informative for others.

I had to get a protein supplement today to assist recovery, I found one that was all natural and good value. My only concern is the xanthan gum which is made from fermented corn sugar. I am thinking that is not good.

I found that it is difficult to get enough protein as Nayto said, and a protein supplement is cost effective, as Nayto said. Also I don't think people should do squats and dead lifts on the same day, I now alternate those. But Starting Strength is at the core of my regimen.
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Teutonic » Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:29 am

Joe wrote:I hope my story of discovery is informative for others.

I had to get a protein supplement today to assist recovery, I found one that was all natural and good value. My only concern is the xanthan gum which is made from fermented corn sugar. I am thinking that is not good.

I found that it is difficult to get enough protein as Nayto said, and a protein supplement is cost effective, as Nayto said. Also I don't think people should do squats and dead lifts on the same day, I now alternate those. But Starting Strength is at the core of my regimen.


As far as a quality protein supplement, I recommend Gold Standard Whey. It's great stuff for the money. I also don't encourage doing both squats and deadlifts on the same day: deadlifts are primarily a back exercise, and being that the back is our largest muscle, it deserves it's own separate training day apart from legs or any other muscle group for that matter.

And if I may also add, if you're into strength training then I also recommend you get on a pill-based Kre-Alkalyn pre- and post-workout supplement in addition to your regular protein supplement consumption, it carries all the benefits of a creatine compound without all the water weight and kidney overworking.
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Nayto » Sat Jan 02, 2016 10:55 am

Teutonic wrote:As far as a quality protein supplement, I recommend Gold Standard Whey.


ON Gold Standard is one of the better ones, but it still uses artificial sweeteners so I couldn't in good conscience recommend it. There is a natural version of Gold Standard which is better though, but a little more expensive.

Teutonic wrote:I also don't encourage doing both squats and deadlifts on the same day: deadlifts are primarily a back exercise, and being that the back is our largest muscle, it deserves it's own separate training day apart from legs or any other muscle group for that matter.

Joe wrote:I found that it is difficult to get enough protein as Nayto said, and a protein supplement is cost effective, as Nayto said. Also I don't think people should do squats and dead lifts on the same day, I now alternate those. But Starting Strength is at the core of my regimen.


The largest muscle in the body is the gluteus maximus, or "butt" :D

I personally with intermediate programming and advanced numbers back squat and deadlift on the same day. Beginners don't have an excuse ;) You just have to rest enough between sets and remember that deadlifts only need ONE work set per session. Anyway it's up to the individual in the end, but I strongly encourage keeping the Starting Strength beginner programming.

Teutonic wrote:And if I may also add, if you're into strength training then I also recommend you get on a pill-based Kre-Alkalyn pre- and post-workout supplement in addition to your regular protein supplement consumption, it carries all the benefits of a creatine compound without all the water weight and kidney overworking.


Creatine -- and all supplements for that matter -- are completely superfluous to strength training. Eat plenty fat for your hormones and eat plenty protein for your muscles with a caloric surplus and you will gain strength like clockwork.

Joe wrote:I hope my story of discovery is informative for others.


Your gains have been good so far. Keep it up!
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Joe » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:24 am

I see that I was doing too many sets. I guess I could easily do one dead-lift set with 3 squat sets.

Nayto wrote
Eat plenty fat for your hormones and eat plenty protein for your muscles with a caloric surplus and you will gain strength like clockwork.


Lev 7:23 `Speak unto the sons of Israel, saying, Any fat of ox and sheep and goat ye do not eat;
Lev 3:17 `A statute age-during to your generations in all your dwellings: any fat or any blood ye do not eat.'

I have checked the commentaries and it does seem to mean just that. But I am a novice and perhaps I am missing the context.
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Teutonic » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:01 pm

@ Nayto

Well you're right, I guess gluts are the largest muscle. I remember reading that the back was in some bodybuilding mag.

But to say that creatine is completely irrelevant to strength training? I know of many fitness fanatics, myself included, who have seen gains in strength, endurance and definition from taking creatine.

Perhaps I was misunderstood with regards to training deadlifts and squat on the same day. With respect to one's weekly workout routine, I would say no. Back and legs are both large muscle groups and each deserves its own workout day.

But with regards to the occasional power routine, interspersed here and there to supplement your normal routine, my answer is yes. Such as if you did a power workout: bench, squat, deadlift, cleans, etc.
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Nayto » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:02 am

Joe wrote:Lev 7:23 `Speak unto the sons of Israel, saying, Any fat of ox and sheep and goat ye do not eat;
Lev 3:17 `A statute age-during to your generations in all your dwellings: any fat or any blood ye do not eat.'

I have checked the commentaries and it does seem to mean just that. But I am a novice and perhaps I am missing the context.


In the law concerning sacrifices the fat wasn't allowed to be eaten because it had to be burnt in the offering. So on any meat which isn't an offering, the fat may be eaten. Also no animal which died from natural causes may be eaten at all, let alone the fat.

There are still many other sources of fat for example milk, cheese, butter, nuts, oils, etc.

Teutonic wrote:But to say that creatine is completely irrelevant to strength training? I know of many fitness fanatics, myself included, who have seen gains in strength, endurance and definition from taking creatine.


Creatine is just a form of energy which is directly available to the muscles. If you have elevated creatine levels through supplementation, at best you will just have some more energy during a workout. This is redundant for two reasons. The first is that muscle can be stressed at 5 rep sets (ideal for strength) at the same level without the extra energy. Secondly creatine does nothing to aid in recovery. So creatine does not help strength training at all.

Further, in order to supplement creatine properly you need to take sugar with it, otherwise it cannot enter the muscle cells. Taking sugar in that amount just to supplement on creatine isn't worth its redundant benefits.

In direct response to what you say on strength, endurance and definition... Creatine does not increase strength. Creatine might increase muscle endurance slightly. Creatine does not increase definition. Definition is a factor of low body fat and increased muscle mass. We don't care about definition anyway, because it is only for vain people. We want to be strong, healthy men, not narcissistic men who apply paint to themselves and show themselves to other men in their underwear :lol:

Teutonic wrote:Perhaps I was misunderstood with regards to training deadlifts and squat on the same day. With respect to one's weekly workout routine, I would say no. Back and legs are both large muscle groups and each deserves its own workout day.

But with regards to the occasional power routine, interspersed here and there to supplement your normal routine, my answer is yes. Such as if you did a power workout: bench, squat, deadlift, cleans, etc.


There is still nothing wrong with deadlifts and squats on the same day once a week or even sometimes twice a week for beginners. As I said, I deadlift and squat on the same day weekly. Only one work set is necessary on deadlifts for adaptation to occur and with that in mind three sets of squats for 5 reps each is totally doable. If I can do it with just over 180kg on squats and just over 200kg on deadlifts, then there is no excuse unless you are an advanced lifter :)

Keep in mind that the topic here is pure strength training. Bodybuilding and such are not considered at all.
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Joe » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:56 am

Nayto wrote
We don't care about definition anyway, because it is only for vain people. We want to be strong, healthy men, not narcissistic men who apply paint to themselves and show themselves to other men in their underwear :lol:


lol. And we must be strong, we must carry our weight.

It seems some commentators thought it was in general Nayto, such as Poole and Barnes. That is why I said that, I was not trying to be contrary to you, I think you're a good guy Nayto. And you are right about other sources of fat of-course.

From Poole
"Throughout all your dwellings"; not only at or near the tabernacle, nor only of those beasts which you actually sacrifice, but also in your several dwellings, and of all that kind of beasts.


And Barnes
"Throughout all your dwellings" - The suet was neither to be eaten in sacrificial meals in the sanctuary, nor in ordinary meals in private houses.


But I found a commentator, Gill, who agrees with you and attributes the other opinion to the jews. I found that most, besides Poole and Barnes did agree with your view. And, of-course, I am persuaded to your view after having seen Gill's comment.

"that ye eat neither fat nor blood"; the Jewish writers think, that this is not to be restrained to the fat and blood of sacrifices, because these were not offered in their dwellings, but in the tabernacle and temple, and therefore interpret it of fat and blood in general; but what fat and blood are meant may be seen in Lev_7:23 the Targum of Jonathan adds,"but upon the top of the altar it shall be offered to the name of the Lord,''which seems to restrain it to the sacrifices.
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