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You're never too old to start

Gardening, Homesteading & Other Wholesome Topics

Re: You're never too old to start

Postby EzraLB » Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:34 am

Joe wrote:Here is another amazing benefit of weightlifting, it may cut cancer risk by 40%.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/commen ... es_cancer/


I would be very skeptical of this "study" that showed how strength conditioning reduces your cancer risk by a whopping 40%. The study appeared on the Mercola website, and while you will find a lot of good health information there, you will also find some very misleading and sensationalistic garbage, too.

Mercola speculates that the reason for the lower cancer risk is that working out reduces your insulin response. This is one of Mercola's hobby horses that is very misleading. Thus, he recommends, for example, that you should limit your intake of all fructose, regardless if it is from a natural or unnatural source, such as high fructose corn syrup. There is no evidence whatsoever that people who have a high fruit intake experience obesity or cancer--if anything, the opposite is true.

Weight lifting, in and of itself, will not reduce your cancer risk. However, people who work out generally have a healthier lifestyle, which would more likely account for any reduced cancer risk. I doubt any study could possibly account for all these factors, despite their claims.

On the other hand, other researchers have pointed out that excessive strength training can contribute to acidification of the body pH, through an excessive production of lactic acid, and this acidification can lead to inflammation, which is common among rigorous strength trainers. Acidification is a major contributor to creating an environment in your body beneficial to cancer development.

Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying working out will cause cancer--but an alkalizing diet, full of fresh greens, is important as part of your regimen to counter-act any acid build up, as Nayto has pointed out.
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Joe » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:10 am

That is not the same study.
http://m.cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/18/5/1468.full
They just showed an association between muscle mass/strength and cancer risk. So it isn't that great, basically a lazy study.

But I do avoid fructose, I gave-up sugar when it was fashionable lol. Refined sugar, sucrose.

Ezra wrote
On the other hand, other researchers have pointed out that excessive strength training can contribute to acidification of the body pH, through an excessive production of lactic acid, and this acidification can lead to inflammation, which is common among rigorous strength trainers. Acidification is a major contributor to creating an environment in your body beneficial to cancer development.


I didn't know this, from what I found it seems to be true that excessive exercise can acidify the body. I do eat foods that would counter this though. I will probably think about this more though.
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Teutonic » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:31 am

Well, in my mind: lifting weights=better overall health=lower risk of cancer, as well as lowering your risk for alot of other illnesses.

I would say there is a direct correlation.
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Nayto » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:24 pm

EzraLB wrote:Weight lifting, in and of itself, will not reduce your cancer risk.


Check out the article I quoted by Dr. Sullivan. Strength training specifically has a significant affect on cellular processes.

EzraLB wrote:However, people who work out generally have a healthier lifestyle, which would more likely account for any reduced cancer risk. I doubt any study could possibly account for all these factors, despite their claims.


I'm sure this has a significant affect, yes.

EzraLB wrote:On the other hand, other researchers have pointed out that excessive strength training can contribute to acidification of the body pH, through an excessive production of lactic acid, and this acidification can lead to inflammation, which is common among rigorous strength trainers. Acidification is a major contributor to creating an environment in your body beneficial to cancer development.


I wouldn't mind reading this research. Do you have any that is freely available for reading?
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Joe » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:03 am

Hey Nayto
Do you know why people have 'leg days' etc. Is it because they do strength training everyday, a different area each day. Do you train everyday?

Would you exercise at night, perhaps after tea? ...most people have more time then.

Do you use support straps, like a belt or wrist straps?
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Nayto » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:23 pm

Joe wrote:Do you know why people have 'leg days' etc. Is it because they do strength training everyday, a different area each day. Do you train everyday?


There are a myriad of programming types and not all are created equal. "Leg days" are there for people who use machines to kill themselves in the gym and the post about it on Facebook.

Having said that, I split my routine up into lower body and upper body days. I use an intermediate routine and intermediates generally have a choice of going with three or four times a week. I train four times a week; two upper body and two lower body days. I find it too time consuming to cram everything into three sessions, so I split it into four and then I can get home at a decent time in the evening.

There's nothing magical about "three" or "four" or "leg days" or "chest days". People swear by different routines without understanding them. They hang onto the form of the thing without understanding the substance of the thing. The point of a program is to provide the body with enough stress to force it to adapt and then provide it with enough rest to recover from that adaptation. The beginner routine I suggested is the best at doing that for a beginner. As one moves to intermediate and advanced levels, things become slightly more complex. But not much more complex.

Joe wrote:Would you exercise at night, perhaps after tea? ...most people have more time then.


I get to the gym around 3:30 - 4pm on Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday. If I had to go to the gym later because of work or something else I would. It has happened before.

Joe wrote:Do you use support straps, like a belt or wrist straps?


I use a belt for deadlifts and squats. Some people see a belt as cheating, but this is not the case. A misconception is that a belt is there for support and protection. The belt is there to provide something for your stomach to push against. This allows your stomach to utilize its natural strength more. So if you can lift a little more when wearing a belt it is not because the belt is supporting you, but rather because you are more effectively able to produce force. Having said all that, beginners probably don't need a belt.

I want to use wrists straps for deadlifts. I currently use the alternating grip, which produces a slightly uneven force on the spine. It's not a major problem, but it's not ideal. If I get wrist straps then I can use double overhand grip which leaves the weight on either side in balance. I tried the hook grip once but wow it hurt. I like my thumb nails the way they are, LOL.

Try to avoid using straps as much as possible though. Barbell training also produces massive grip strength provided you rely on your own natural grip. Heavy deadlifts is often an exception though, but them as far as you can without.

Something which is amazingly useful in the gym is chalk. I always keep some in my gym bag. It allows your natural grip strength to reach its maximum. I use chalk on deadlifts, chin ups, power cleans and sometimes squats if my hands are very sweaty. Get ready for big calluses though!
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Joe » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:40 pm

Thanks Nayto

Nayto wrote
I find it too time consuming to cram everything into three sessions, so I split it into four and then I can get home at a decent time in the evening.


It usually takes over an hour and a half with 10 minute rests.
I assume you put squats and dead-lifts in the lower body category.

Something like this (So you are not doing squats every session):
intermediate programme.jpg
intermediate programme.jpg (32.83 KiB) Viewed 599 times


You don't have to tell me your exact programme, that is just what I think I will do eventually.

I am doing starting strength with squats and dead-lifts every session. I will have some new equipment today which will allow chin-ups and overhead presses. I was training on uneven ground, so that will change too.
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Nayto » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:28 am

That program is fine, but I would recommend sticking with the beginner routine for as long as you can. Often people want to move over to an intermediate routine too quickly when they can still squeeze out gains on beginner. Beginner is definitely the fastest way, but obviously it gets to a point where the body can't adapt that quickly anymore.

My only problem with that program is that it focuses too much on "bench press and related exercises". The bench press kinetic chain starts where the traps come into contact with the bench and then goes through up into the hands. That is not a very long kinetic chain. Also the range of motion of the bench press isn't very big. For this reason the standing press is a far superior exercise. Longer range of motion and the kinetic chain goes from the feet to the hands. Bench press is still great, but try not to neglect the standing press. Also "related exercises" are rarely necessary.

I do heavy standing press, light bench press and weighted chin ups on Monday. Then I do heavy bench press, light standing press and chest to the bar chin ups on Thursday. So I'm not neglecting anything, but probably favoring standing press slightly because I'm the most fresh on Monday. Then I do heavy squats, heavy power cleans and a light set of deadlifts on Tuesday. Heavy squats, heavy deadlifts and a light set of power cleans on Friday.
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Joe » Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:16 am

Don't worry Nayto, I am still doing the beginner programme and I am using that table you provided me to determine where I am at. Thanks for sharing your routine, I just like to have the map planned-out before I get there.

My only problem with that program is that it focuses too much on "bench press and related exercises". The bench press kinetic chain starts where the traps come into contact with the bench and then goes through up into the hands. That is not a very long kinetic chain. Also the range of motion of the bench press isn't very big. For this reason the standing press is a far superior exercise. Longer range of motion and the kinetic chain goes from the feet to the hands. Bench press is still great, but try not to neglect the standing press. Also "related exercises" are rarely necessary.


I am doing overhead presses instead of bench presses now, at-least until I get a bench for my new set-up. I hadn't done overhead before and like them better. I know Rippetoe recommends them over bench press for the reason you say.

What do you think of bicep curls?

I don't know why so many people hate Rippetoe, it is clear he is trying to get more people involved in strength training and is not trying to be an olympic lift coach.
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Re: You're never too old to start

Postby Nayto » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:55 pm

Joe wrote:What do you think of bicep curls?


They're okay for strengthening the biceps and some supporting muscles. Normally if I'm eating a lot at the time I'll add them in once a week for a few weeks and then leave it. Simply because my body will be able to recover from the extra strain because of the caloric surplus of my diet.

I always favour chin ups and weighted chin ups over bicep curls though. A chin up has a longer range of motion and it uses more muscle, so it's a better movement if you want to train the biceps.

Many people say that pull ups (pronated grip) are better than chin ups (supinated grip) because pull ups are harder. The opposite is actually true. Chin ups use more muscle mass and are thus easier, but that's exactly why they should be done. Movements which use more muscle will increase overall strength even more.

Joe wrote:I don't know why so many people hate Rippetoe, it is clear he is trying to get more people involved in strength training and is not trying to be an olympic lift coach.


I think it's a combination of his confidence in his program and his quirky nature. Also you're bound to offend someone on the internet.
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