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I consider Pastor James P. Wickstrom my friend.

Christian Israel Identity and Other Alternative Media

I consider Pastor James P. Wickstrom my friend.

Postby Frenchman » Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:21 am

:D
Last edited by Frenchman on Wed Nov 25, 2009 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I consider Pastor James P. Wickstrom my friend.

Postby wmfinck » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:28 pm

Frenchman,
I really am oblivious as to why you thought that you had to defend James Wickstrom in this forum, because as far as I know, there is nothing negative about him posted in this forum. However that is bedsides the point.

As for your assertions concerning the "lake of fire" of Revelation Chapters 19 and 20 (the only chapters where the phrase "lake of fire" appears in the Bible), well, they are just plain wrong. No excuse can be made to support them. You cannot determine on your own what is "mistranslated" in the Bible, without solid evidence from ancient manuscripts and/or Greek (or Hebrew) lexicons. If you go and look at every Biblical mistranslation or corruption which I have pointed out in my ministry, you will find references to lexicons and/or ancient texts proving my point. I just don't spout things off of the top of my head.

The earliest Greek witnesses we have of the Revelation date back to the 2nd century AD, in ancient papyri that have been discovered by archaeologists. There are many manuscripts containing various parts of the text, to one extent or another, from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries A.D., along with the hundreds of surviving attestations and citations from early Christian writers such as Irenaeus, Tertullian, Eusebius, Justin Martyr, etc. which predate the 5th century, and therefore also predate the formation of the "Roman Catholic Church"and its dogmas by several centuries.

In all of the locations where the phrase "lake of fire" appears (see the quotes of the KJV found below), in all of the extant manuscripts of the Revelation, the phrase is limnen (lake) tou puros (of [the] fire). There is no other reading than this for these words in any ancient manuscript.

Puros is the Genitive form of pur, or fire, in Greek, and this is the Greek word from which the English word "pyre" and the prefix "pyro-" are derived. It means virtually nothing in Greek but fire, and in Greek literature it is always associated with forces such as burning, heat, or destruction, or as a symbol of rage or terrible things (you can find all of this in the Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon).

I have a Hatch & Redpath Concordance to the Septuagint. It is a 2000+ page book, which I have used in all of my more copious studies of Greek words in the New Testament. One of the benefits that this book provides, besides being a full catalog of each occurrence of every Greek word in the Septuagint, is that it also provides the Hebrew word from the Masoretic Text which corresponds to each entry.

Examining the Greek word pur, we see that in the Masoretic Text it corresponds to the following Hebrew words: 215 owr; 784 esh; 800 eshshah; 1200 beerah; 3827 labbah; 3852 lehabah; 5135 nuwr; 7565 resheph; and 8273 sharab. What does this mean? This means that it can be rather safely assumed that the Hebrew word from which we (and the jews) get "Shekinah" was never translated into the Greek words pur or puros in the Septuagint Greek version of the Old Testament.

Rather, the idea which "Shekinah" represents would more appropriately be translated into the Greek word doxa, often "glory" in the KJV, a word which can also be interpreted "effulgence". Paul uses the word doxa in this very manner several times in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, and you will find that in those places it is translated as "effulgence" in the Christogenea New Testament.

Examining the passages where the phrase "lake of fire" appears (see below), the context is always one which portends destruction, and not any imagined purification or cleansing. Even if puros could ever be imagined to represent the idea which the Hebrew word shekinah conveys, it would certainly not hold true in the contexts where it is found in chapters 19 and 20 of the Revelation.

All of this adds up to one thing: If you think that "lake of fire" in these passages of the Revelation should somehow be taken to mean "lake of [shekinah] glory", then you are making up your own Scriptures. You are accursed, having added to the words of the book. The interpretation flies in the face of the meaning of the Greek words, and is anti-thetical to all good scholarship. It is certainly also anti-thetical to the words of Christ both in these passages, and in many other places in the Gospels.

The Bible, even Paul in Romans chapter 9, fully indicates that there are people here on earth who are "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction", and of whom "the ends are destruction". You claim "God" is "big enough" to do anything. You also inferred, even asserted that my "god" is "too small" to save the devils. My only claim would be that my "God" keeps His Word, and it is my obligation to understand that Word.

The concept of the "restoration of all things" as taught by certain pastors who claim to be Christian Identity is nothing more than an apology for the non-White races and bastards of the world. Yahshua broke the people of the world up into two groups, in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew chapter 25, and told us that the goats go to everlasting punishment, not through some magical purification. There is no third alternative. One is a sheep. or one is a goat, and a goat can never be made a sheep. The Word of Yahweh is "kind after kind". Now, what part of "everlasting" do you not understand?

Revelation 19:20-21 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 20:10 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14-15 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14 - 21:1 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Re: I consider Pastor James P. Wickstrom my friend.

Postby Frenchman » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:32 pm

Dear Bill , I posted an article on the other forum about my views concerning the misinterpetation of the Lake of Fire scenarios. If needed I can post here to make a more consistent read of the discussion. Regards, Frenchman!
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Re: I consider Pastor James P. Wickstrom my friend.

Postby Frenchman » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:39 pm

My reply about "Shekinah Fire" is posted in the NEW TESTAMENT DISCUSSION Forum. I posted it on Friday Evening (as was requested in the Chat room on Friday Night) . I chose to defend Pastor Wickstrom on this board because it was in the Chat Room that It was alluded to, that I had Questionable motives, because I am a participant on Pastor Wickstrom's Talk Shoe Program. That's ALL. Regards, Frenchman
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Re: I consider Pastor James P. Wickstrom my friend.

Postby wmfinck » Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:41 pm

Well, that cannot be a reply to my post above, since I only posted my own reply to you this afternoon [Saturday].
I do not know Wickstrom's teaching on this issue concerning the "lake of fire", and I really do not care, because what I have said comes from Scripture and a thorough understanding of the Greek language. I follow no man, but Yahshua Christ and His Word.
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Re: I consider Pastor James P. Wickstrom my friend.

Postby davethenobody » Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:49 pm

Not wishing to court controversy or appear confrontational and most definitely not wanting to poke my nose in or divert the subject from it's purpose by hi-jacking the thread, I do however feel the need to ask you brother, whether you feel it would first be prudent for you to perhaps try to ascertain exactly why Dr Wickstrom felt the need to make an direct and unequivocal allegation of duplicity on the part of Pastor Eli James during his Talkshoe 'Yahweh's Truth' broadcast this Thursday past 09/23/2009 at exactly the 27 minute mark.

http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-58022/TS-269705.mp3

I don't know from what or where you formed your opinion concerning any matter of Dr Wickstrom but I can only conclude you have been misled brother. For you I pray the prayer of 2 Kings 6:17

Yahweh bless..
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Re: I consider Pastor James P. Wickstrom my friend.

Postby Les » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:28 am

I was the one who suggested Frenchman post here in the forum anything that he had to say,without getting cut off,or misread like in the chatroom.

(Maybe the gutless anonymous ones we have seen there the past few months will also visit and fully explain what THEY mean,without making veiled threats).

On a Wickstrom chat, someone anonymous accused William of saying things about Wickstrom in the chatroom on 09-09-2009, but after looking at it all,I only remember seeing one person accuse Jim of anything, and it was not William.

As a teacher, JW is one of the best,and I am glad he has been going for as long as he has, in all the years I wasted and spent time just working and not studying enough CI myself, since the early 1990s.

As for outside of his teaching and dedicated patriotism to our folk, I do not know him personally and can not comment.
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Re: I consider Pastor James P. Wickstrom my friend.

Postby Les » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:50 am

daveUK wrote:
I do however feel the need to ask you brother, whether you feel it would first be prudent for you to perhaps try to ascertain exactly why Dr Wickstrom felt the need to make an direct and unequivocal allegation of duplicity on the part of Pastor Eli James during his Talkshoe 'Yahweh's Truth' broadcast this Thursday past 09/23/2009 at exactly the 27 minute mark.

http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-58022/TS-269705.mp3


Ok, I listened , was not Thursday's,checked again, you mean the WEDNESDAY 9-23 show.
Hmm, curious myself, first who is Bill White? and
1) If it is true Eli James is also, or was ,named Joseph November?
2) where did this information come from,and for what purpose?
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Re: I consider Pastor James P. Wickstrom my friend.

Postby Guest » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:55 am

Les wrote:
daveUK wrote:
I do however feel the need to ask you brother, whether you feel it would first be prudent for you to perhaps try to ascertain exactly why Dr Wickstrom felt the need to make an direct and unequivocal allegation of duplicity on the part of Pastor Eli James during his Talkshoe 'Yahweh's Truth' broadcast this Thursday past 09/23/2009 at exactly the 27 minute mark.

http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-58022/TS-269705.mp3


Ok, I listened , was not Thursday's,checked again, you mean the WEDNESDAY 9-23 show.
Hmm, curious myself, first who is Bill White? and
1) If it is true Eli James is also, or was ,named Joseph November?
2) where did this information come from,and for what purpose?


I stand corrected on the date. Your second point is just what I was alluding to, where did this information come from,and for what purpose?.
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Re: I consider Pastor James P. Wickstrom my friend.

Postby rpwake2 » Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:41 pm

The best thing about Jim is he introduced me to Clifton Emahiser. He is a dynamic speaker and a good 2 seedliner. He has sinned but who hasn't.

The real question why he would make reference to Eli and an alias. I guess he has his reasons. I know the tree by its fruit. And so far as I can see Eli has brought for much fruit that is helping people. Bill knows Eli better than I and if he trusts him, that's good enough for me. Bill what abouat the Binghamton fiasco? How was it that the news got out?


Well that is my 2 cents
Yah bless all the Saints
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