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Deuteronomy 23

Old Testament religious discussion apart from Biblical history

Re: Deuteronomy 23

Postby MikeTheAdamite » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:19 pm

Thats an excellent observation Mark whoever wrote it! I hated having to accept it as a mistranslation because that kind of invalidates scripture.Even if it was only the smallest difference in the Hebrew,it massively changed the meaning.
This is a much more valid explanation.

But wasn't this translation error of mistaking the R for a D made elsewhere in scripture?Im sure I heard Bill mention this somewhere,that it was a common scribble error.
Last edited by MikeTheAdamite on Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Deuteronomy 23

Postby Kentucky » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:00 pm

MikeTheAdamite wrote:Thats an excellent observation Mark whoever wrote it! I hated having to accept it as a mistranslation because that kind of invalidates scripture.Even if it was only the smallest difference in the Hebrew,it massively changed the meaning.
This is a much more valid explanation.

There are many mistranslations because of intentional adulterations and unintentional scribal errors. What invalidates a Scripture is when it does not harmonize with the inspired Word of God wholistically. Many become disillusioned with Scripture merely because they find one passage that has yet to be understood. We should always give Scripture the benefit of the doubt that it is perfect, until such time that we can prove that it is an interpolation or some other mischief inserted. But, it takes a lifetime to correctly interpret, study and obey its contents. In God we trust that He will reveal it to us.

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Re: Deuteronomy 23

Postby wmfinck » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:45 pm

It is even funnier when certain people insist that the plain words of Jeremiah 8:8, made three hundred years before their own pet version of Scripture was created, somehow do not apply to that version. LOL.

There are also places in the Septuagint that the scribes had confounded the "D" and the "R" when they translated it. The confusion of the Hebrew letters Daleth and Resh in the Septuagint translation was a frequent occurrence, and a study unto itself.
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Re: Deuteronomy 23

Postby wmfinck » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:16 pm

A list comparing the account of one man's name in the Septuagint (Brenton's transliterations) and the King James Version based upon the Masoretic Text:

2 Samuel 6:10 LXX: Abeddara KJV: Obededom
2 Samuel 6:11 LXX: Abeddara KJV: Obededom
2 Samuel 6:12 LXX: Abeddara KJV: Obededom
1 Chronicles 13:13 LXX: Abeddara KJV: Obededom
1 Chronicles 13:14 LXX: Abeddara KJV: Obededom
1 Chronicles 15:18 LXX: Abededom KJV: Obededom
1 Chronicles 15:21 LXX: Abededom KJV: Obededom
1 Chronicles 15:24 LXX: Abededom KJV: Obededom
1 Chronicles 15:25 LXX: Abededom KJV: Obededom
1 Chronicles 16:5 LXX: Abededom KJV: Obededom
1 Chronicles 16:38 LXX: Abededom KJV: Obededom
1 Chronicles 26:4 LXX: Abededom KJV: Obededom
1 Chronicles 26:8 LXX: Abededom KJV: Obededom
1 Chronicles 26:15 LXX: Abededom KJV: Obededom
2 Chronicles 25:24 LXX: Abededom KJV: Obededom

The man whom the Septugint calls Abeddara in 1 Chronicles chapter 13 is the SAME MAN that the Septuagint calls Abededom in 1 Chronicles 15.

This is from Bible Works 8.0, and I have verified this in part in the Hatch and Redpath Concordance to the Septuagint, and in Brenton's edition of the Greek.

Anyone who thinks that the Septuagint is free of ancient scribal Daleth/Resh Hebrew letter confusion in a fool who has not studied as much as he claims to have studied.
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Re: Deuteronomy 23

Postby MikeTheAdamite » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:43 am

Do you believe that Deuteronomy 23 is a scrible error Bill?or could the above explanation-that it is reffering to the offsprig of Esau through his Israelite wife?
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Re: Deuteronomy 23

Postby wmfinck » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:24 am

MikeTheAdamite wrote:Do you believe that Deuteronomy 23 is a scrible error Bill?or could the above explanation-that it is reffering to the offsprig of Esau through his Israelite wife?


You must have meant his Ishmaelite wife - and ostensibly, the children of Reuel, who dwelt in the land of Edom with the rest of his kindred, could not have kept themselves separate. There is no indication whatsoever anywhere in Scripture that there were ever two classes of Edomites. It is understandable that Reuel himself may have been an Adamic man, however there is no guarantee even of that since there is no record in Genesis of Ishmael's wives, but only of the names of his sons.

Understanding that Deuteronomy 23:7 is very possibly a scribal error, and seeing how that error may easily have occurred, and that such errors occurred often, is a reasonable way of deducting how Deuteronomy 23:7 could be in such clear conflict with the rest of Scripture.

However imagining that there could be two classes of Edomites, one of which would be acceptable, is pure conjecture when no such thing is ever mentioned elsewhere.

The Aramaeans (Syrians) were close kin to the Hebrews, and they had a close relationship with Israel all throughout the Kingdom period. See 2 Samuel chapter 8. Even long before that, Jacob's father-in-law was called "Laban the Syrian", although he was a Hebrew, and the homeland of Abraham was called "Padan-Aram", the "Plain of Aram". Abraham's steward was Eliezar of Damascus.

It is reasonable to conclude that Yahweh would tell Israel, in Deuteronomy 23:7, not to mistreat the Syrians.

However the Edomites, excepting Rueul, all had the blood of Canaan. And Rueul and his children later dwelt among them, and they all dwelt with the Horites, who were Canaanites.

As Mark said, when a passage conflicts with the general spirit of the Scripture, it must be held suspect. Deuteronomy 23:7, I believe, is certainly a scribal error. I think it should have said "Aram".

Do not let the Septuagint fool you in these matters. It is often not much more of an authority than Masoretic Text. The Septuagint is superior in many respects, but it too is far from perfect. It contains a lot of scribal interpretation, which no translation can avoid. It contains glosses and errors. It contains passages that were evidently tampered with (I will cite Jeremiah 8:8 once again). The Hebrew Text employed by Josephus was, in my opinion, often superior to both the Septuagint and the Masoretic Text, but we may never possess one like it, and it surely was not perfect either.

There is also no firm indication that the Septuagint which the apostles used is the Septuagint which we have today, and anyone who makes such an insistence is a fool. There were competing Greek manuscripts from an early period. One example is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, where there are Greek manuscripts found containing the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in Hebrew letters wherever one may expect the Greek word κύριος to appear.

The quotes of the Old Testament found in the New are mostly, but not always, agreeable to the Septuagint which we have. That may have been because the apostles were only paraphrasing. BUT it may have been because they had a different "Septuagint"! We may really never know.
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Re: Deuteronomy 23

Postby MikeTheAdamite » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:50 am

Ok thanks for your opinion Bill.
(Ye I ment Ishmaelite,I'll blame predictive text! ) :oops:
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Re: Deuteronomy 23

Postby Micah83 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:14 pm

Just something for you for what its worth. The Klan was and is a White Supremist organization which adheres to Yahwehs Law. Some giudelines for entrance: You must be a White Protestant THIRD generation American. Indeed, the third generation rule applies to foreign Aryans.
"We ought to obey God rather than men"-- Acts 5:29
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