Israel's national movement

[Nayto]

I recently had a debate with some Christian Israelites about where Israel would gather and what nation they are to reside in. I personally lean towards believing that the USA is the place where Israel is supposed to be, but what about future movements? Look at something like 2 Samuel 7:10, "Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime"

It seems to infer that they will move away from the land of Canaan and move no more, right? However, look at Ezekiel 36:22-28, "Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD... For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God."

This seems to refer to the new covenant, or at least is referring to the time of dispersion. This would make sense if referring to the gathering of Israel to the USA, however what confuses me is the following piece: "And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers..." This seems to be referring to the land of Canaan. I suppose the house of Judah was dispersed and was regathered to the land of their fathers, but the verse says "say unto the house of Israel". Maybe if the house of Israel was divorced and not actually part of Israel then saying "the house of Israel" might actually only be referring to the house of Judah. I can't really convince myself with that though.

To add to this, Christ said the following in Mat 24:29-31, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

It seems that Israel will go through a period of having fallen completely and utterly to the powers of evil in this world, at which point Christ will return and only at that point will Israel be regathered. Is this the same gathering where when there is a new heaven and earth we will live in the land of our ancient fathers?

This is all very confusing to me and any input would be most welcome.

Having said all this, I still believe that the USA is the most Christian country to have been founded ever apart from the countries which Israel dwelled in previously. I'm just trying to place everything in the bigger picture.

[wmfinck]

The earth is Yahweh's and the fullness of it.

The meek shall inherit the earth.

For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

It seems to me that there are greater promises than merely those explicitly given to Abraham.

[Nayto]

Yes, there is no doubt of that, but only after Christ returns.

This debate actually stems from them following a false prophet in our country and part of my angle in proving this prophet to be false is to prove certain things about Israel's national movement.

[wmfinck]

I am not exactly certain what you mean by "Israel" in your title. If you would like to know what the Bible says about the current state of blasphemy in Palestine, perhaps you should see this podcast:

http://christogenea.org/content/malachi ... 09-30-2011

[Kentucky]

This seems to refer to the new covenant, or at least is referring to the time of dispersion. This would make sense if referring to the gathering of Israel to the USA, however what confuses me is the following piece: "And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers..." This seems to be referring to the land of Canaan. I suppose the house of Judah was dispersed and was regathered to the land of their fathers, but the verse says "say unto the house of Israel". Maybe if the house of Israel was divorced and not actually part of Israel then saying "the house of Israel" might actually only be referring to the house of Judah. I can't really convince myself with that though.

We (Americans) are dwelling in the land that God gave to our fathers. Remember that America, prophetically speaking, was born in a day and that we had 'founding fathers.' The time or tense and the identity of these 'fathers' are perhaps as transcendent as the last verse in the OT (significant, don't you think?) i.e Malachi 4:6. But, the best resolve, I would think, is that the old Jerusalem is not the new Jerusalem. The house of Judah became null and void after the Messiah was born; the tribe of Judah still existed, but the "house" per se was finished. Judah would merge back into the nations of Israel; they were, for the most part, with Israel in the Assyrian captivity and migrated along with her in the dispersions. "The two sticks" of Ezekiel (chapter?) speak about this reunification. When we accept Judah as Germany, we see Germans coming to America along with all the other tribes/nations of Israel. When are you moving here brother?

Mark

[Fenwick]

This debate actually stems from them following a false prophet in our country and part of my angle in proving this prophet to be false is to prove certain things about Israel's national movement.

Ah, that'll be Van Rensburg and his ideal of the white exodus to Africa.


I know there are a hundred different nations all wanting their own to hold the prestige of a gathering place, but as a Brit I still think that all the evidence points to the United States as a symbolic gathering place. All other white colonies are made up of just one or two different tribes, but the USA has millions of all of them. Before you even go into the other scriptural prophecies.


I don't think you'll have much luck convincing everybody of this though. Those "vain genealogies" survive to this day, as you see with some of the British Israel folks.

[Nayto]

We (Americans) are dwelling in the land that God gave to our fathers. Remember that America, prophetically speaking, was born in a day and that we had 'founding fathers.' The time or tense and the identity of these 'fathers' are perhaps as transcendent as the last verse in the OT (significant, don't you think?) i.e Malachi 4:6. But, the best resolve, I would think, is that the old Jerusalem is not the new Jerusalem. The house of Judah became null and void after the Messiah was born; the tribe of Judah still existed, but the "house" per se was finished. Judah would merge back into the nations of Israel; they were, for the most part, with Israel in the Assyrian captivity and migrated along with her in the dispersions. "The two sticks" of Ezekiel (chapter?) speak about this reunification. When we accept Judah as Germany, we see Germans coming to America along with all the other tribes/nations of Israel. When are you moving here brother?

Mark

Something some people just don't get is that New Jerusalem isn't the old. We have no need to go back to the old because we are collectively Jerusalem. I see Jerusalem and the temple as synonymous in this regard. They are even trying to preach a return to tge Levitical system here. They are Paul bashers of course as well.

My will to be there is stronger than ever. I'll be there as soon as God wills it! Proverbs 16:9.

Ah, that'll be Van Rensburg and his ideal of the white exodus to Africa.


I know there are a hundred different nations all wanting their own to hold the prestige of a gathering place, but as a Brit I still think that all the evidence points to the United States as a symbolic gathering place. All other white colonies are made up of just one or two different tribes, but the USA has millions of all of them. Before you even go into the other scriptural prophecies.


I don't think you'll have much luck convincing everybody of this though. Those "vain genealogies" survive to this day, as you see with some of the British Israel folks.

You're absolutely right about van Rensburg. Also I agree about the USA. AND you hit the nail on the head about vain genealogies, because the same people are obsessed with them.

[GermanSaxon]

Nayto,
What are - "vain genealogies"

GS

[Nayto]

Indeed, and they do love their genealogies. Unfortunately such things are lost on Paul bashers.

[SwordBrethren]

To add to this, Christ said the following in Mat 24:29-31, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Israel is already regathered in North America [basically the United States].

Election is a subset of the wider Israelite group. You can attend a school but not belong to a specific team or be enrolled in a certain class. That is how I view election. Not all Israelites are part of the "elect" as referred to in that passage.