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Mosaic Law

Old Testament religious discussion apart from Biblical history

Re: Mosaic Law

Postby Vandal » Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:56 pm

Christ Yashua is the Law. "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the father but through me."

"In the beginning was the word (logos, plan of law or order), and the word was with God, and the word was God." In other words, the plan of order is also a person. We are part of that person, a harmonious arrangement (kosmos) in his image and likeness.

The truth is not a written or spoken word. Scriptures are true, and they testify OF THE TRUTH, but they are not the truth. "I am the way, the truth, and the life."

Truth is a person. The Law is a person. The Person is Yahweh. This is the person into whose similitude we will be resurrected when we put off corruption and put on incorruption.

We cannot keep the law because of corruption. We are to strive after that person, not after the law, and he will help us avoid grave errors. He will light our path. We will not be able to keep the law entirely until he changes us from corruptible to incorruptible.

John 14:1 ... cast your cares about the law on Him, for He is the Law. Go study the word LOGOS to see it is the person, not an idea.
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Re: Mosaic Law

Postby Nayto » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:07 am

Thanks for the extra context on those chacters. I feel confident enough to take my judeo-churchian relatives on now. Too bad in the mean time they have been watching television and believing corrupt sources.

I agree with your point in the second post that we are to strive towards the Truth. Christ is our example.
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Re: Mosaic Law

Postby wmfinck » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:07 pm

Nayto wrote:You say that if you are currently committing some act of sin or have committed, you should not judge any kindred on that sin.


It is utter hypocrisy to judge a man for something that you yourself are doing. In judging another, you convict yourself. If you are committing fornication, what right do you have to judge a fornicator? You first must repent - pulling the beam out of your own eye - and then seek to correct your brethren from a position of humility.

Nayto wrote:I think it's easy to get mixed up with the word, "judge". It is in fact a very rich word which has all sorts of associations based on the context of the word and unfortunately there are some very negative contexts for this word in a Christian context thanks to judeo-churchianity.


It is easy to get mixed up with the word "judge" mostly because Christians today judge but take no action in relation to their judgment. They dislike sexual deviants, and they still associate with them. They bite their own tongues to avoid controversy, or hurting anyone's feelings. Their preachers marry women to apes, and they still attend their services and give them donations! Therefore like it or not, they become signatories to their sin.

Nayto wrote:[In reference to my explanation of Acts chapter 15:] I agree that this was a transition phase, and amongst the morass of pharisaic leaven it was probably just simpler to tell them to do those things. However this does not mean that the sum total of the law lies there in, or that the rest of the law was cast aside. I find it interesting that they did not mention "love your kindred as you would love yourself". Surely this is a great error on their part?


The instructions issued by the apostle in Acts chapter 15 were for the people of Antioch - converts to Christianity from the Hellenistic world - and they were issued in order to clarify certain things. They were not really additions to the ten commandments, but rather they were clarifications necessary due to differences in culture and in the understanding of certain terms, for the apostles were indeed teaching many things from the Old Testament scriptures.

The apostles also taught that there were eleven commandments. The eleventh being the "new commandment" to love one another. Paul taught that also, but evidently - since he did not hear the words of Christ, he taught it on slightly different terms than John. Paul taught that, keeping the commandments, we should owe no man any thing except to love one another.

Judeo-Christians love to preach the ten commandments, but real Christians really have eleven.

Nayto wrote:None of the original law has fallen away. We know for a fact that even before Moses gave the law at Sinai that there was some law which governed how God's people were to act, otherwise He would not have judged Sodom and Gomorrah!


It should be evident, that there are eternal laws which transcend the Levitical law. This was said at Genesis 26:5, over four hundred years before the Levitical law: "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Romans 7:1-4 is but one passage which proves that Israel was freed from the Levitical law. The apostles agreed at Acts 15:10. Paul told the Galatians that "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:24-25)

We must understand that if we were to be judged by the Levitical law, our entire race has failed and we would all be liable to death. Yet as Christians, we should endeavor to keep the law, knowing that it is an ideal we should aspire to. That is also a lesson of Romans chapter 7.

Since we (those of us who are true Israel) have been granted mercy, and not judged by the law, all Israel shall indeed be saved. However we shall also be rewarded according to our works.

Nayto wrote:I listened for another 5 minutes and had more comments


I hope you have listened to both podcasts and considered all of these things. They all must be taken into account and reconciled with one another before a shadow of the truth can be understood.

Nayto wrote:Obviously we will never attain this law completely, but we must strive for it always even though it will not save us. I mean, we need Christ because the law is currently in effect!


The laws of our God are timeless. But the Levitical law is only a reflection of that eternal law, codifed for the purpose of the Old Kingdom.

From Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

It is time to follow those laws written upon our hearts, reflected in the eleven commandments, since one thing we should have learned from the Old Kingdom through the Scriptures is that the keeping of the letter of the law leads to Pharisaism, and not to righteousness.

If you love your brother, it is difficult to break one of the first ten commandments.

Nayto wrote:If we keep a part of the law we must keep it all, right? Yes, but only when it comes to the salvation of Israel and by extension our salvation personally. Does this mean we need to forsake keeping what parts of the law we can? I seriously don't think so.


James says: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." (2:12)

If you look to the law for righteousness, you have failed, because you have not only rejected the mercy and salvation of Christ, but you also better keep the entire law perfectly - something which no man can do.

Therefore understand that while the law is our tutor, and we should aspire to it, we cannot gain righteous before God by it. The law does not bind us. We have all been purchased by Christ and His mercy binds us. In Him we have liberty from the judgements of the law. If He has saved us, nothing can destroy us. We are to extend that same mercy to our brethren, being fully obedient to the Master.

Romans 5:18-20 with some clarification in brackets: "Therefore as by the offence of one [Adam] judgment came upon all men [Adam's descendants] to condemnation [all men being destined to die once]; even so by the righteousness of one [Christ] the free gift [salvation] came upon all men [all Adamites] unto justification of life [resurrection]. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners [the entire race of Adam], so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous [Christ]. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound [that we may recognize evil]. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound [mercy in Christ is without exception]: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

Surely we must aspire to keep the law, and surely we must excommunicate unrepentant sinners. But we are not going to be judged by that law since we have already been granted mercy.

But that does not mean that there is no cause and effect. If we do wicked things, we shall indeed suffer trial in this life, and also risk any reward we may have had in the next.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15: " 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

If you have done evil, you will be forgiven - the trials of fire shall destroy your evil works. If you have done well, and your good works endure those trials, you will have a reward.

Some men do no good, and they shall have no reward, but the man himself shall be saved. It is for this reason that I believe Daniel said (12:1-2) "KJV Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

All of those who awake are also those written in the book, which must be the Book of Life of the Revelation!!! Those who awake to shame and everlasting contempt may have eternal life, but they have no reward. This is the only way by which to reconcile all of these scriptures and others, in my humble opinion.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Mosaic Law

Postby Nayto » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:32 am

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm still taking everything in and will take time to mull it over.

In the mean time, I see you make a distinction between Levitical law and the laws laid down since creation. Is this intended? Also by Levitical law do you mean the Mosaic law or just the laws pertaining to the temple ordinances?

Also, it's interesting that there was an 11th commandment, given that most commandments are summed up in the 11th. I wonder why God did not command Moses to put it on the tablet in the first place. It's like keeping the application of the 11th wasn't enough, they had to understand the reason for it in the first place and God chose Christ to teach it.
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Re: Mosaic Law

Postby wmfinck » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:33 am

If Abraham followed Yahweh's laws, statutes and judgments 400 years before the Levitical law, is it not evident that there are more durable laws transcending the Levitical law? The Scripture speaks for itself. And if Paul talked about a change in law as a necessity, to what new law was he referring, if not the law that Yahweh promised to have written on our hearts in relation to the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31)? Do not treat the Levitical law as ultimate, because it is not. It was imposed for the administration of the Kingdom of that era, and its demise was foreseen by God beforehand.

The Levitrical law is, however, a reflection of those more durable laws that transcend it, which it encapsulated.

John 13:34-35: "34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

Christ called it a new commandment, not I, therefore it must be the eleventh, however that label is only a rhetorical device.

1 John 2:7: "Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning."

Well, obviously we needed it spelled out for us, since we didn't get it from the beginning. So we read in Hosea "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

Many Christians still don't get what I called the "eleventh commandment".
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Re: Mosaic Law

Postby Kentucky » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:24 pm

It should be noted that Mt. 22:36-40 is used by the antinomian churches to nail the Mosaic laws to the Cross even though verse 40 says that all the Laws (with the exception of the Levitical ordinances i.e animal sacrifices etc) hang or are hinged to the aforementioned laws concerning love. Matthew has encapsulated the Ten Commandments with our love for God, which is the first four commands, our relationship with God; and our love for our own kind, which is the fifth through the tenth commands, our relationship with our fellow man. Love (agape) indeed does have a far deeper meaning regarding the Law as it is defined for us: "For this is the love of God, when we keep His commandments" I John 5:3.

Likewise, the New Covenant is only new in the sense that it takes all the previous covenants, which one might associate with the Law and the prophets (that Christ said He did not come to destroy) and are put in our heart and mind. Up until that time, obedience to God was predicated on works of the flesh. The new deal is spiritual, in which the Holy Spirit enables our walk with Christ.

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Re: Mosaic Law

Postby Nayto » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:58 am

wmfinck wrote:If Abraham followed Yahweh's laws, statutes and judgments 400 years before the Levitical law, is it not evident that there are more durable laws transcending the Levitical law? The Scripture speaks for itself. And if Paul talked about a change in law as a necessity, to what new law was he referring, if not the law that Yahweh promised to have written on our hearts in relation to the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31)? Do not treat the Levitical law as ultimate, because it is not. It was imposed for the administration of the Kingdom of that era, and its demise was foreseen by God beforehand.

Kentucky wrote:Likewise, the New Covenant is only new in the sense that it takes all the previous covenants, which one might associate with the Law and the prophets (that Christ said He did not come to destroy) and are put in our heart and mind. Up until that time, obedience to God was predicated on works of the flesh. The new deal is spiritual, in which the Holy Spirit enables our walk with Christ.


I agree with both. Israel was too scared to hear the law straight from God anyway. It's interesting though, because Moses -- as the high priest so to speak -- gave the law according to how he interpreted from God. Now we have Christ as high priest who gives us the law perfectly and it gets delivered straight to our "hearts". Why go back to an "outmoded" interpretation of the law? Having said that, there definitely is value in knowing the Mosaic law.

This of course implies that there is indeed a greater law which we need to adhere to -- which the Levitical/Mosaic law was a shadow of.
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Mosaic Law or not?

Postby aleajactaest » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:17 pm

I think that Moses did not write Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy at all.
This means that almost certainly we were all wrong in the last 3000 years + until 2013 ....... and after?

Example

Did Yahweh lie to Moses in Exodus 3:15 and Exodus 6:2,3?

Check
Genesis 4:26; Genesis 18:14; Genesis 24:3; Genesis 26:22; Genesis 27:20; Genesis 27:27.

Next time another Example.
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Re: Mosaic Law

Postby Nayto » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:40 am

I checked all your examples and I don't follow the logic or understand at all. Could you elaborate a bit?
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Re: Mosaic Law

Postby aleajactaest » Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:25 pm

Nayto said
I checked all your examples and I don't follow the logic or understand at all. Could you elaborate a bit?


Sorry, but I was probably in the hurry to go somewhere and, in rushing, I wrote a couple of not so relevant verses and missing many important ones. Also I was not very explicit.

There are very many reasons why Moses did not write the Pentateuch, and these were discovered and assessed by many biblical scholars (mostly Germans) during the past 300+ years.

One of these reasons concerns the name of God and the knowledge of His Name by the most important personages God has dealt with. Let's begin with the crucial verse from which the question arise:

Exodus

6:2 And ´Élöhîm אֱלֹהִים 430 spake unto Möšè, and said unto him, I [am] Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068

6:3 And I appeared unto ´Avrähäm, unto Yixçäk and unto Ya`áköv by [the name of]
´Ël אֵל
430 Šadday שַׁדַּי, 7706 but by my name Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 was I not known to them.



Let's see if Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 told the truth unto Moses. Reviewing the book of Genesis we find:



Genesis

9:24 And Nöåh awoke from his wine ...
9:25 And he said, ...
9:26 And he said, Blessed [be] Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 ´Élöhîm אֱלֹהִים 430 of Šëm and Cænä`an shall be his servant.

14:22 And ´Avräm said to the king of Sæðöm,
I have lift up mine hand unto Yähwèh יָהוֶה, 3068
´Ël אֵל 410 `Elyôn עֶליוֹן ,5945 the possessor of heaven and earth,

15:2 And ´Avräm said, Áðönäy Yähwèh 3069 יָהוֶה, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house [is] this ´Élî`ezer of Dammä$ek ...
...
15:7 And HE said unto him, I [am] Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 that brought thee out of ´Ûr of the Ca$dîm to give thee this land to inherit it.

15:8 And he said, ´Áðönäy Yähwèh יָהוֶה, 3069 whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

16:2 And §äray said unto ´Avräm, Behold now, Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 hath restrained me from bearing: ...

16:5 And §äray said unto ´Avräm My wrong [be] upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 judge between me and thee.

19:13 For we (Angels) are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068, and Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 has sent us to destroy it.”

19:14 So Lot went out and said to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, “Up! Get out of this place, for Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 is about to destroy the city.” ...



From this partial list it is clearly evident that Nöåh, ´Avräm and §äray knew extremely well the name of God being Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068.
In Genesis 24 there are 16 verses showing that Abraham (2 verses), his servant (11 verses) and Laban (3 verses) knew extremely well the name of God being Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068.



26:22 And he (Isaac) removed from thence, and digged another well; and for that they strove not: and he called the name of it Rehoboth; and he (Isaac) said, For now Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 hath made room for us, and we shall be fruitful in the land.

26:25 And he (Isaac) builded an altar there, and called upon the name of Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068, and pitched his tent there: and there Isaac's servants digged a well.

26:28 And they (Abimelech, Ahuzzath and Phichol) said, We saw certainly that Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 was with thee: and we said, Let there be now an oath betwixt us, even betwixt us and thee, and let us make a covenant with thee;

26:29 That thou (Isaac) wilt do us no hurt, as we have not touched thee, and as we have done unto thee nothing but good, and have sent thee away in peace: thou (Isaac) art now the blessed of
Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068.

27:7 (Isaac) Bring me venison, and make me savoury meat, that I may eat, and bless thee before Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 before my death.

27:20 And Isaac said unto his son, How is it that thou hast found it so quickly, my son? And he (Jacob) said, Because the Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 thy ´Élöhîm אֱלֹהִים 430 brought it to me.

27:27 And he (Jacob) came near, and kissed him (Isaac): and he (Isaac) smelled the smell of his (Jacob) raiment, and blessed him (Jacob), and (Isaac) said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 hath blessed:

28:13 And, behold, Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 stood above it, and said, I am Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068, ´Élöhîm אֱלֹהִים 430 of Abraham thy father, and the ´Élöhîm אֱלֹהִים 430 of Isaac: the land whereon thou (Jacob) liest, to thee (Jacob) will I give it, and to thy seed;

28:16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 is in this place; and I knew it not.

28:21 So that I (Jacob) come again to my father's house in peace; then shall
Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 be my ´Élöhîm אֱלֹהִים 430:

29:32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me.

29:35 And she (Leah) conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.

30:24 And she (Rachel) called his name Joseph; and said, Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 shall add to me another son.

32:9 And Jacob said, O ´Élöhîm אֱלֹהִים 430 of my father Abraham, and ´Élöhîm אֱלֹהִים 430 of my father Isaac, Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068 which saidst unto me, Return unto thy country, and to thy kindred, and I will deal well with thee:

49:18 I (Jacob) have waited for thy salvation, O Yähwèh יָהוֶה 3068.



In sum, we can realistically conclude that
not only
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
knew exactly the name of God being exactly Yahweh,
but also
Noah, Sarah, Lot, the servant of Abraham, Laban, Abimelech, Ahuzzath, Phichol, Leah and Rachel
knew the name of God being exactly Yahweh.
Who knows how many others knew.


Question - 1: Did Yahweh lie to Moses in Exodus 6:3?

or

Question - 2: Did Yahweh have a "lapsus memoriae" when telling Moses HIS real NAME in Exodus 6:3?

or

Question - 3: Was Moses mildly affected by Alzheimer disease when writing the Pentateuch?

or

Question - 4: Was the Pentateuch, probably, written by a few discordant Israelite writers?


Perhaps, there could be more questions to ask but these suffice.

There are other conundrums in the Pentateuch that indicate multiple writers and editors.
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