John 8:58 - I AM

[ADLmostwanted]

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM!

wmfinck stated "Yahweh, in His absolute foreknowledge of all things, had already known before the beginning of the creation that He would come here on our behalf as one of His Own children, which is Yahshua Christ."

My response to this verse as being evidence that Jesus is God will begin by me using similar logic to yours by quoting your previous statement above. I would like to alter to read like the following...

Yahweh, in His absolute foreknowledge of all things, had already known before the beginning of the creation that He would SEND JESUS here on our behalf as one of His Own children, which is Yahshua Christ. So, Jesus pre-existed Abraham figuratively in God's plan! ... but not as God the Father in heaven. The next verse enforces this...

(John 8:56 MKJV) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and He saw and was glad.

Did Abraham see Jesus? No, but he knew God's plan.

Also, as for the expression I AM in particular... Saying "I am" , ego eimi, was common phrase of that time. Jesus uses it to draw attention to himself in the strongest terms. It means something like "I am he" in english.

Some believe Jesus prexisted in heaven as one of his created Angel's. And that Jesus was the first of the heavenly host to be created, and assisted in the creation of the world as God's master worker. But they believe he was separate, created, and subordinate to his Dad. I don't believe this. But it is another alternative interpretation to the "Yahshua Christ IS Yahweh" belief.

[wmfinck]

As I told you in another thread in this section of this forum, Yahshua Christ took credit in Matthew chapter 13 for the creation of the "wheat": The Adamic race. Go read the Genesis account, only Yahweh created Adam, and so Yahweh must be the Christ, and the Christ Yahweh. Paul tells us in the epistle to the Hebrews that Christ was the rock in the desert. Go read the Exodus accounts, only Yahweh was with the Hebrews as they departed from Egypt, and so Yahweh must be Christ, and Christ Yahweh. NONE of your silly sophistic arguments account for any of this, and you obviously don't actually know a damned thing about Scripture, which puts you into the class of the Pharisees, who debated Scripture without actually knowing anything about it.

You are only making yourself look like an dissembler, or a jew, or both! Why are your arguments "rational", and not Scriptural? Do you not even know the difference? One of the very themes of the New Testament is that Yahweh would make the "rational" look like fools!

Yahshua also said "Before Abraham was, I am", and the only way He could say that is if He were Yahweh!

[Mountainman]

Here is the best interpretation of the “I Am” verse that I have heard.

John Chapter 8 contains a long discourse with scribes & Pharisees. Back and forth Yashua says one thing and the Scribes and Pharisees don’t understand him and even twist his words to trip him up:

Vs 19: Jews “Where is thy Father? – Yashua “Ye neither know me nor my Father...
Vs 22: Yashua “Wither I go ye cannot come – the Jews “will he kill himself?”
Vs 32: Yashua “The truth shall make you free – the Jews “we be Abraham’s seed and were never in bondage... How sayest thou ye shall be made free?”
Vs 41: Yashua “Ye do the deeds of your father.” The Jews “we be not born of fornication; we have one Father even god.”
Vs 48: the Jews “thou hast a devil” Yashua “I have not a devil but I honour my Father”
Vs 51: Yashua “if a man keep my saying, he shall never see death” The Jews “Abraham and the prophets are dead and thou sayest if a man keep my saying he shall never taste death?

After this long discussion back and forth, Yashua vs the Jews

Then comes vs 56 – 58

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Notice, Yashua said “Abraham saw my day” The Jews twisted it and said “YOU saw Abraham?”

Abraham saw the Christ in his foreknowledge just like all Israel had the hope of a saviour.

In verse 58 Christ is saying “Abraham was before – I am!” “Abraham was in the past – I’m in the present! You are wrong again you stupid Jews can’t you get anything straight?”


Part 2: Shredding Wm. Finck’s view.

Wm. Finck is saying that after all the back and forth Yashua vs the Pharisees that in verse 58 they finally saw eye to eye.

Wm. Finck’s interpretation:

57 Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Yes! Your right scribes and Pharisees!!!

Wm Finck >>>As I told you in another thread in this section of this forum, Yahshua Christ took credit in Matthew chapter 13 for the creation of the "wheat": The Adamic race.

My reply: IMO the many clear versus don’t support your interpretation of this verse. The many clear versus speak of Yahshua being the SON of God having a separate will, knowledge, and even character (Don’t call me good, there is only ONE good – The Father!). The Bible uses the phrase Son of God 250 times vs God the Son – zero. I believe good research methods works to fit the few difficult versus in harmony with the many clear. Do Not throw out the many clear versus to conform to the few difficult versus.

Wm Finck >>>Paul tells us in the epistle to the Hebrews that Christ was the rock in the desert. Go read the Exodus accounts, only Yahweh was with the Hebrews as they departed from Egypt, and so Yahweh must be Christ, and Christ Yahweh.

Me: So Yahweh was a stone you could pick up and toss?? NOT – This verse is symbolic not literal!


Conclusion: John Chapter 8 vs 56-58 has one of many times where the Pharisees don’t understand and even twist Yashua’s words. Christ said “Abraham saw my day (in his foreknowledge). The Jews twisted it and said “you saw Abraham?” and Christ replied “No idiots! They were THEN – I am NOW!”


Ya Bless!
Mountain Man

[wmfinck]

You should also go read my paper on Biblical Exegesis, because your interpretation of one half of the Bible makes mince meat of the other half. Why do you believe an interpretation that denies half of the Bible?
You also make mince meat of my words, I never said that Yahshua and the Pharisees saw "eye to eye"!
Neither did I ever say that Christ, or Yahweh, was a literal rock. Your reading skills really need improvement. Ho-Hum...

[Mountainman]

What’s our disagreement?

To me our disagreement is before Yashua’s baptism. After his baptism I recognize he had “God in him.”

Do you believe the infant Yashua was God All Mighty Creator of The Heavens and The Universe????

In the Old Testament we had God prophesying the coming of his Son whom he would pour his spirit on. That Son would follow God’s will. After he poured his spirit on his son, “God was IN Christ reconciling the World unto himself” and “God was IN the flesh” – how? God’s Spirit was poured on Yashua after his baptism!

It just takes ONE example of differences between the Son and the Father to show they ARE different. My first post referenced several.

Mary had an egg. God created the seed. The child grew like any other child. He was baptized by John and the Holy Spirit came upon him. He started his ministry and …. You know the rest of the story.

I am amazed at the division this discussion causes among the “Christian” community. To me it is so clear in God’s Word.


Ya Bless.
Mountainman

[PastorVisser]

Do you believe the infant Yashua was God All Mighty Creator of The Heavens and The Universe????

Do you deny the scripture that clearly states He is?

Col 1:15-17; "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

Christ IS the Creator.

In the Old Testament we had God prophesying the coming of his Son whom he would pour his spirit on.

Isa 9:6; "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Christ is God also.

[wmfinck]

Thank you, Pastor Visser, I was just going there. The failure of people who see that Yahshua Christ is the human incarnation of Yahweh Himself is a failure to think abstractly. They insist upon the "evidence" (in human terms) that He is "different" and at the same time they deny all of the Scripture that demonstrates that He is One God, as Thomas recognized Him to be his Lord and GOD. Was Thomas a blasphemer?
The apostles also later received that same Spirit descended from heaven, but that does not make them God. Since the words used are the same, Mountainman cannot legitimately claim there is a difference. So Mountainman's claims concerning the event at the baptism of Christ fail.
The Word = Yahweh = He who "became flesh" = the Light entered into the world = Yahshua Christ. John 1.
Darkness comprehends it not.

[Mountainman]

PastorVisser>>>Do you deny the scripture that clearly states He is?

Me: I deny that the “Scripture clearly states that He is (God)” Rather God’s Word clearly states he is the SON of God (not God the Son)

I’m Glad you brought up Colossians 1 15-17 "Who (the Son) is the image of the invisible God (the Father) We have 2 separate distinct “people” mentioned here – the Father and the Son.

PastorVisser >>>>>Col 1:15-17; "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

Me: I believe the parenthetical phrase contained in this scripture pertains to the Father NOT the Son. I would have referenced these versus thus: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: [For by him (THE FATHER) were all things created,....]

Isa 9:6 IMO is fulfilled when the Son has the Spirit of the Father poured on him upon his baptism.

WMF >>>>Thomas recognized Him to be his Lord and GOD. Was Thomas a blasphemer?

Me: Didn’t Thomas recognize him as Lord and MY God rather than THE God Almighty?

WMF>>> The apostles also later received that same Spirit descended from heaven, but that does not make them God.

Me: Neither did it make Jesus God. Also the apostles did not have God as their Father they did not have “sinless blood.”

Again I ask my question to you: Was the infant Jesus (crying, pooping etc.) The God Almighty, Creator of the Heavens and The Earth, or was he the only begotten Son of God waiting for God’s spirit to be poured on him when he was baptised as an adult?

[wmfinck]

So, basically you are saying that Thomas had another God besides Yahweh? That Thomas elevated Christ as a man to the position of God? And Christ did not censure him for it? Do you not see how that is a blasphemous position? There is ONE GOD. He manifested Himself on earth as a man. He is the Son, and He is the Father. All of your circular arguments will not convince me otherwise, because your human reasoning consistently denies half of Scripture.

As Christ Himself said in response to the request "show us the Father", that “For so long a time I am with you and you do not know Me, Philippos? He who has seen Me has seen the Father! How do you say ‘show us the Father’?" To deny half of Scripture is to be an anti-Christ. It is not the Scripture which is in conflict. It is your understanding which is wanting. Christ was the Son, and Christ was the Father. The invisible God manifest as one of His Own sons, so that He could walk among them. The precise fulfillment of the prophecy that "I will set My tabernacle among them"! The body, as the Bible teaches, is the true tabernacle. How do you not understand any of this? Do not fault myself or Pastor Visser for your inability to see this.

In response to your question concerning the infant Christ, Pastor Visser answered that question when he quoted Isaiah 9:6. That Scripture IS your answer.

[PastorVisser]

There is no argument as to the deity of Christ:

Rev 1:8; "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

So yes, MM - Yahsua Himself claims to be the Almighty Yahweh. There's no "controversy" about it:

1Ti 3:16; "Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

"God manifest in the flesh" is Jesus Christ:

Php 2:6; "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

Jesus is NOT lying when he states "Before Abraham was, I AM" (the beginning and the ending) - study out Melchizedek in Genesis 14 then Hebrews (chapter 7 mostly). Adam was a son of God (Luke 3:38), Satan is a Son of God (Job 1:6), WE are sons of God (1Jn 3:1) but the creator Jesus IS God in flesh form.

It’s judaism that teaches Christ isn’t Messiah, not Christianity - perhaps Alpha & Omega God might help.

War for Christ,