Was Jesus God in the Flesh? A Unitarian view defined

[ADLmostwanted]

Here is a summary of claims made by Unitarians

1) Jesus is lesser in power than God(The Father, Yahweh, or Jehova) and a subordinate of God.
2) Jesus is a separate entity from God.
3) Jesus was himself created and NOT co-eternal.

I will quote scriptures that support this view. Each with its own post / subject line. I will also refute or respond to any and all scriptures used to support the opposing viewpoint.

I will open my mind to logic on this topic. I am cautious of language that I must first "open" my "heart to the Truth". God is not a god of confusion and I believe truth is revealed in a logical fashion. The identity of God himself should certainly not be confusing. It is obviously of great importance to God himself since the first of his 10 commandments was to "worship no other god before me".

[wmfinck]

Your "Unitarian" view is almost true - for there is One God, Yahweh. Yet your interpretation of Scripture fails in many ways. It is evident that we do not define certain terms, or view certain concepts, in the same manner. Sure, the flesh was created, and so Yahshua Christ in the flesh - His body - was born to this world in the natural manner. Like the branch grows out of the root, for that reason He is called the Branch, and He is called the Root. But you are confusing the flesh with the person, and the body - which is the vessel - with that which it bears. You are thinking about the Branch, and forgetting how He could also be the Root. What is more important, the house, or he who inhabits the house?

Yahweh God is One - as scripture attests again and again, however He can manifest Himself as He desires. And He chose to come as one of His Own offspring, which is the special signification of the being of the Christ in the first place! That is why the apostle Thomas, upon realizing that it was indeed true that Yahshua had risen from the dead, exclaimed to Him "My Lord and my God!" Paul says in Hebrews 2:16 (CNT): "For surely not that of messengers has He taken upon Himself, but He has taken upon Himself of the offspring of Abraham", and He was able to do so because He IS Yahweh! Emanuel (Matthew 1:23) means "God is with us" and it is literally true. That is why Yahweh says at Ezekiel 37:27: "My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. "

Let us take but ONE prophecy where Christ is said to become ruler over Israel. It is from Micah 5 and it is quoted by Matthew, applied to the Christ, at Matt. 2:6: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel." Now when did Christ rule over the children of Israel? Not yet. That is to be fulfilled at a second advent. That was a point of Scripture contended even at the time of Christ, i.e. Acts 1:6.

Now here is Scripture from the Revelation showing that God (Greek theos - Yahweh here in my translation) and Jesus (Greek Iasous - Yahshua), who are both often referred to as Lord (Greek kurios - usually Prince in my translation but in quotes from the OT often Yahweh) are all one and the same:

Rev. 15:1-4:
”1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and wondrous, seven messengers having the seven last plagues, that in them the wrath of Yahweh is fulfilled. 2 And I saw like a glass sea mixed with fire, and those prevailing from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name standing upon the glass sea holding lyres from Yahweh. 3 And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of Yahweh, and the song of the Lamb, saying: “Your works are great and wonderful, Prince Yahweh Almighty! Your ways are righteous and true, King of the Nations! 4 Who should not be afraid, Prince, and honor Your Name? Because You are the only Holy One, because all the Nations shall come and they shall worship before You, because Your judgments have been made manifest!”

Rev. 19:1-21:
” 1 After these things I heard like a great sound of many multitudes in heaven, saying 'Praise Yah! Salvation and honor and power are of our God! Because His judgments are righteous and true, since He has judged the great whore who has ruined the earth with her fornication! And He has avenged the blood of His servants from her hand!' 3 Then they spoke a second time: 'Praise Yah, that her smoke ascends for the eternal ages!' 4 And the twenty-four elders fell down, and the four living creatures, and they worshipped Yahweh who sits upon the throne, saying: 'Truly! Praise Yah!' 5 And a voice came out from the throne, saying: 'Praise our God, all His servants, and fear Him, small men and great men!'
6 And I heard like a sound of many multitudes and like a sound of many waters and like a sound of mighty thunders saying 'Praise Yah! For Prince Yahweh the Almighty reigns! 7 We should be glad and rejoice and give honor to Him, because the wedding-feast of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself! 8 And it is given to her that she is wrapped in clean bright linen. For the linen is the vindications of the saints!' 9 And he says to me: 'Write! Blessed are those invited to the dinner of the wedding-feast of the Lamb!' And he says to me: 'These are true words from Yahweh!' 10 And I fell before his feet to worship him. And he says to me: 'No, look! I am your fellow-servant and of your brethren who have the testimony of Yahshua! Worship Yahweh! For the testimony of Yahshua is the spirit of interpreting prophecy.'
11 And I saw the heaven having been opened, and behold! A white horse, and He sitting upon it Faithful and True, and He judges in righteousness and makes war. 12 Now His eyes are as flames of fire, and upon His head are many diadems, having a name inscribed which no one knows except Him, 13 and He is cloaked with a garment dipped in blood, and His Name is called the Word of Yahweh. 14 And the armies in heaven follow Him upon white horses, clothed with clean white linen. 15 And a sharp sword comes out from of His mouth, in order that with it He may smite the Nations, and He shall shepherd them with an iron staff, and He shall trample the vat of the wine of the wrath of the anger of Yahweh Almighty, 16 and He has upon His garment and upon His thigh a name written: 'King of Kings and Sovereign of Sovereigns'.

"17 And I saw one messenger standing on the sun, and he cried out with a great voice saying to all of the birds flying in mid-air: 'Come! Gather to the great dinner of Yahweh, 18 in order that you may eat the flesh of the kings and the flesh of the commanders and the flesh of the mighty and the flesh of the horses and of those sitting upon them and the flesh of all both free and slaves and small and great!' 19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered to make war with Him sitting upon the horse and with His army. 20 And He seized the beast, and with him the false prophet who had been making signs before him, by which he deceived those having received the inscribed mark of the beast and who worshipped his image. These two are cast alive into the lake of fire, burning with sulfur. 21 And those remaining were slain by the sword of Him sitting upon the horse, which came from out of His mouth, and all the birds ate their fill from their flesh.

Now considering all of the times in the Scripture that it is said that the Christ shall rule the nations (the nations of Israel - and any other White Adamic nations), like Revelation 12:5 for instance, it is absolutely evident that Yahweh and Yahshua are one, or these verses don't matter, and half of the Scriptures referring to the Sovereignty of God and/or Christ are wrong. Yet Scripture is not wrong. It is the reasoning of those who make Yahweh and Yahshua to be two different beings or entities which is wrong! The children of Israel rejected Yahweh as their King, but He will be their King again: as Yahshua Christ. This is a full revelation of Scripture!

Yahweh is also the Husband of Israel, the nation which is His bride. Isaiah at 54:5 says "For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called." Yet in the gospels Yahshua calls Himself the bridegroom, John the Baptist refers to Him as the bridegroom, and in the Revelation we see the Wedding Supper of the Lamb. Yet in another place Yahweh says to Israel (Hosea 2:19): "And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in loving-kindness, and in mercies. " So, who is married to Israel? The Son? Or Yahweh Himself? Or both? The Son - Yahshua Christ - IS Yahweh! Paul knew it, and knew how this related to the law, and so is the purpose of his discourse on the marriage relationship between Yahweh and Israel at the beginning of Romans chapter 7. This is also the purpose of Yahshua's discourse at Luke 16:16-18, for which see my paper The Divorce Discourse. Yahshua - Yahweh the Husband - fulfilled the law by dying on the cross so that Israel - the Wife - would be free from the judgement of death for adultery required by the law, and this is what Romans 7 explains. The only way that this could be so is that Yahweh and Yahshua are One and the same - and they are! The Father manifest in this world as one of His own sons.

Isaiah 9:6-8: "6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. 8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel. "

Yahshua is Yahweh. Period. That is my reality, and you cannot change it. Don't tread on me if you can't see it. You surely won't change my mind. This short paper does not reflect the whole of my arguments, many of which I am saving for a reply to another of your posts.

[ADLmostwanted]

I just made this thread to clearly define the Unitarian point of view. As for Jesus ruling the nations of the earth, my response to that as evidence that he is God is here...

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=77

[wmfinck]

I just made this thread to clearly define the Unitarian point of view. As for Jesus ruling the nations of the earth, my response to that as evidence that he is God is here...

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=77

Not a good answer. i doubt if you even read and considered the Scriptures I have cited.

[ADLmostwanted]

I did not make this thread to argue or discuss. I made it do define the Unitarian view... just like the subject line indicates. All too often people argue or discuss without the clarification needed for it to be productive. It's like two guys argueing about whether Obama is racsit without laying out their definitions of what racist is.

[wmfinck]

Well than how can you answer me at all, if you yourself admit not having taken the time to read what I have written here?

[SaxonJackson]

I did not make this thread to argue or discuss. I made it do define the Unitarian view... just like the subject line indicates. All too often people argue or discuss without the clarification needed for it to be productive. It's like two guys argueing about whether Obama is racsit without laying out their definitions of what racist is.

What was your underlying purpose for posting the Unitarian view if not to draw some sort of a response? Many of the signers of the Humanist Manifesto were/are members of the Unitarian church so it comes as no surprise that they would seek to de-elevate Jesus Christ as a means to elevate themselves. The Unitarian Jesus is but a man. The Christian Jesus is God in the flesh.

2 Corinthians 11:4, "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

[matthewott]

If we cared about the one world/universalist/humanist unitarian view, we sure as heck wouldn't be here, now would we? Why don't we just start allowing jews to post quotes from the Talmud here, and allow them to stay unchallenged, as if we have something to learn from them concerning the will of Yahweh? We appreciate your candor, but not your propaganda.