This Forum is now inactive and has been replaced by a new Christogenea Forum. You may browse here but there are no updated threads or new posts since January 1st 2017. Forum members please see THIS NOTICE for information concerning your account at the new forum.

12 Tribes OT vs NT

Discussions concerning the New Testament

12 Tribes OT vs NT

Postby Unnamed » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:12 pm

Perhaps this has been asked and answered before, but I can't find it here.

Can anyone explain the reason behind a new roll call of Israelite tribes as given in the Revelation of Yashua Christ? In the OT, Joseph was replaced by his two sons Ephraim and Manassah. However, in Revelation 7:4, we see that Joseph's name returns to the roll call of tribes replacing Ephraim.

What is the reason for this?
Unnamed
 

Re: 12 Tribes OT vs NT

Postby matthewott » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:51 am

I don't see the conflict, as Joseph was not "replaced". Joseph was alotted a double portion, which he simply split between his two sons. For the sake of the OT history, at that time when the land parcels were divvied out to the tribes, it only seems logical that the double portion for Joseph be handled by Ephraim and Manassah, and thus parceled in their name as an inheritance. In the Revelation of Yahshua, it would make sense that the Twelve Tribes would be recognized by the names of the 12 sons of Jacob Israel. This is a designation of heritage, not inheritance. Unless there is something in scripture that supports the idea that Joseph was "replaced", I think you may be trying to equate a reference of inheritance to a reference of heritage.
And then again, I may be misinterpreting the context, but I hope this at least sheds a new perspective.

Yah Bless,
Matt
For the Word of Yahweh is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb. 4:12
User avatar
matthewott
 
Posts: 788
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:49 pm
Location: Millersburg PA

Re: 12 Tribes OT vs NT

Postby Unnamed » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:36 am

Well, actually that makes sense to me, Matthew. Thanks for that.

I'd be interested in reading what anyone else had to say about this. Bill?
Unnamed
 

Re: 12 Tribes OT vs NT

Postby wmfinck » Wed May 19, 2010 11:20 am

From Clifton Emahiser's presentation of Bertrand Comparet's 14-part series on the Revelation, where Clifton include many of my own notes that I made while proofreading the series for him, these are some of my notes from Part 5, which pertains to Revelation Chapter 7:

Note #1: The majority of the people of the oikoumenê – the Greco-Roman world, were either Adamic Japhethites, Shemites, and probably some descendants of Ham, and surely the Canaanites were present in many places, and the majority of all these were of the children of Israel who settled in these places as Danaans, Dorians, Trojans and Phoenicians. So the Roman empire, while made up of Israelites and other Adamites, was still to suffer the judgment of Yahweh for its sins (Rev. 6:17).

The first 6 seals have already been opened – and these all represented internal strife within the Greco-Roman empire. The 7th seal will bring down the empire for good, and it is the children of Israel who are destined to do this thing (i.e. Daniel 2:44-45, 7:18). So just before the “barbarian” Israelites invade the empire (which also consists of many of their own brethren), 144,000 of these “barbarian” Israelites are “sealed” – a guarantee that they would suffer no harm through the coming battles and tribulations. That these are Israelites of the deportations, “barbarians”, and not Greco-Romans who are spared, compare Isaiah 49 in general, but specifically Rev. 7:16 to Isaiah 49:10. As soon as the 144,000 are “sealed”, the seventh seal is opened and the destruction of the Greco-Roman empire from the outside begins.

The “numberless multitude” are all of the other Israelites, aside from the 144,000, who did suffer through those tribulations but who “washed their robes and made them white”, and Yahweh has promised to “dwell among” none other but Israel (i.e. Jer. 31:33), so “all nations” must here be limited to all of the Israelite nations (Greek, Roman, Phoenician, Germanic, etc.) of the oikoumenê, and none other.

The white robes (Rev. 6:11, 7:9), the quote of Psalm 3:8 (Rev. 7:9), the mention of the elders and the four “beasts” or “living creatures”, symbolic of Israel (Rev. 7:11), all indicate that the great multitude here are only of Israel, and not even the other Adamic nations. Only men are counted here, because only men are ever counted in any census of Israel. Women are never counted in a census in Israel. Of course it can be safely inferred that there are women appropriate for all the men counted.

The idea that the 144,000 is some future “administrative staff” of the kingdom, or that these are select men from throughout our history is silly. Dead men don’t need to be sealed! Yahweh rules in heaven! We need to make things “on earth as they are in heaven.” These 144,000 must represent a historical entity, which I have discussed above. W.R.F.

Note #2: Comparet makes the same tired old mainstream error made since the days of Ezra, to consider the Israelites deported by Assyria, “ten-tribed” when actually it was most of all twelve tribes! W.R.F.

Note #3: Dan was not sealed because Dan never was deported by the Assyrians. Dan was in Ireland before they were in Denmark, and I doubt if they ever crossed northern Europe by land, but probably attained it by sea. The rivers of eastern Europe may have acquired their names from the earlier Danaans who came to Greece from Egypt, who were also colonists and travelers (The Argonauts, The Odyssey, tales about Danaans!) The Greeks traveled and had settlements on many European rivers and on the Black Sea long before any Scythian appeared in those places. W.R.F.


The entire series can be found at http://emahiser.christogenea.org/site/o ... er-sermons

Hope this helps!
Bill
Image
If a jew is moving his lips, he's lying. If you see a rabbi, there has already been a crime!
User avatar
wmfinck
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2775
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:09 am

Re: 12 Tribes OT vs NT

Postby Unnamed » Thu May 20, 2010 10:43 am

Thanks, Bill.
Unnamed
 


Return to New Testament Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron