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Show us why these verses don't support universalism

Discussions concerning the New Testament

Show us why these verses don't support universalism

Postby Zenas » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:51 pm

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In discussions with a missionary friend in a third world country, I asked him what scriptures he thought supported his work. He provided these, with the words, "just two below:"

Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest."

[“28 Come to Me, all those who are toiling and being burdened, and I shall give you rest. ] Finck's

John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."


They do say, "all you" and "whoever."

Why do they not mean, "all" and "whoever?"

I've already pointed out that in Matthew 10:6, Christ says, "But go rather, to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But here in Chapter 11, Christ is preaching "in their cities." verse 1. In short, even though Christ replies to the two disciples John [the Baptist] sent, Christ appears to be talking [preaching] to everyone / anyone here.

I can see how easy it is for universalists to use these and other verses in support of the "gospel is for everyone" as my friend believes.

John 8:12

VIII 12 Then again Yahshua spoke to them saying “I am the light of the Society. He following Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life!”

How does one show that the "Society" mentioned here is not the "world" as translated in other versions?

Let's face it, my friend can very well say that "Society" is no better a translation choice than is "world." It is, he will argue, a matter of bias.
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Re: Show us why these verses don't support universalism

Postby JamesTheJust » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:44 am

Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest."
Remember that we must answer the questions of Who, What, Where and When

The Where is obvious. It is in Galilee.

Who was in the region of Galilee?

Primarily Benjamin from whom Yahshua chose eleven of HIS twelve apostles. For more on this, I suggest reading Bill's paper on "Galilee of the Gentile?" here: http://christogenea.org/site/Galilee

XI 1 And it came to pass that when Yahshua had finished appointing His twelve students, He passed over from there for which to teach and to proclaim in their cities.
Whose cities? The cities in the region of Galilee.

Yahshua then goes on to state in verse 16
“16 But to what shall I compare this race?
Other translations use the word "generation", but the proper interpretation is "race"; meaning that Yahshua was speaking to a particular people - RACE.

So when Yahshua says:
“28 Come to Me, all those who are toiling and being burdened, and I shall give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, because I am meek and humble in heart, and you shall find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is kind and My burden is light!”
HE is speaking to those people of Galilee of that particular RACE. And since we know that Yahshua was sent ONLY for the Israelite, HE was obviously talking to them.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Again, we know that the Israelites kept the Feast of the Tabernacles. And this was the time this feast was kept in Jerusalem. We see a mix crowd here, some who sought to kill HIM and said HE was possessed. But there were some who believed on HIM. We have a clear indication as to who those who believed on HIM were if we only back up a few verses.
31 Then many from the crowd believed in Him and they said “When the Christ comes shall He do greater signs than those which this man has done?” 32 The Pharisees heard the crowd murmuring these things concerning Him, and the high priests and the Pharisees sent deputies that they may seize Him. 33 Then Yahshua said: “I am with you for a short time yet, then I go to He who has sent Me. 34 You shall seek Me, and shall not find Me, and where I am you are not able to come.” 35 Therefore the Judaeans said to themselves “Where is He about to go that we shall not find Him? Is He about to go to the dispersion of the Greeks and teach the Greeks?
So even they knew that this message was meant for the Israelites; thinking that Yahshua would go to the Israelites of dispersion!

It is imperative to keep things in context. Let any Israelite who will not repent of the universalist doctrine be accursed! For they are SURLY calling Yahshua/YHWH a LIAR. They are essentially stating that Yahshua did not mean what HE said or that the Apostles were deliberately disobedient to the commandment of our Messiah when neither is the case.

I am frustrated and yet amazed that so-called learned men of YHWH continue to take scripture out of context. Not only do they take certain scripture out of context, they throw away the entire bible; for it is replete with the racial message from beginning to end. YHWH does not change.
Ye chosen seed of Israel's race, ye ransomed from the fall, hail him who saves you by his grace, and crown him Lord of all. Hail him who saves you by his grace, and crown him Lord of all.
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Re: Show us why these verses don't support universalism

Postby wmfinck » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:05 am

Yahshua Prophesied Universalism:
Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like a net having been cast into the sea and it
gathers from out of every race, 48 which when it is full, bringing up upon the shore and sitting
they gather the good ones into vessels, but the rotten ones they cast out. 49 Thusly it shall be
at the consummation of the age, the messengers shall go out and they shall separate the
wicked from the midst of the righteous 50 and they shall cast them into the furnace of fire.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth! - Matthew 13:47-50, CNT

As He also did in Isaiah:
All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest. His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. - Isaiah 56:9-10

If there are so many clauses explicitly limiting the scope of the Covenants (Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8:8 first come to mind), then the "all" and the "whosoever" of the passages cited by Zenas must indeed also be limited to the scope of those statements concerning the Covenants. So they must mean "all" of the house of Israel and "all" of the house of Judah, and "whosoever" of the house of Israel and "whosoever" of the house of Judah.
I can understand the frustration Zenas must experience, when one is constantly confronted with those few passages that the universalists love to take as stand-alone decrees. Yet no passage of Scripture can fairly be made to stand alone - out of context, when discussing the scope of the Covenants - or anything can be perverted.
The following passages are from the opening chapter of Luke. They set the context for the entire gospel:
12 And Zacharias seeing it was troubled and fear fell upon him. 13 And the messenger spoke to him: “Fear not, Zacharias, since your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elisabet shall produce a son for you and you shall call his name Iohannes. 14 And he will be a joy to you and an exultation. And many shall rejoice upon his birth. 15 For he shall be great before Yahweh, and wine and beer he shall not drink, and he shall be filled of the Holy Spirit yet in the womb of his mother. 16 And many of the sons of Israel shall he turn to Yahweh their God. 17 And he will go on before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the purpose of the just, to make ready a people prepared for Yahweh.” - Luke 1:12-17, CNT

30 And the messenger said to her “Do not fear, Mariam! For you have found favor before Yahweh. 31 Now behold, you shall conceive in the womb and you shall beget a Son, and you shall call His name Yahshua. 32 He shall be great and He shall be called ‘Son of the Highest’ and Yahweh God shall give to Him the throne of David His father, 33 and He shall rule over the house of Jakob for the ages, and of His kingdom there shall be no end!” - Luke 1:30-33, CNT

54 He has come to the aid of His servant Israel, to call mercy into remembrance, 55 just as He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his offspring for the age. - Luke 1:54, CNT

67 Then Zacharias his father was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied, saying: 68 “Blessed is Yahweh the God of Israel, that He has visited and brought about redemption for His people, 69 and has raised a horn of salvation for us in the house of David His servant, 70 just as He spoke through the mouths of His holy prophets from of old: 71 preservation from our enemies and from the hand of all those who hate us! 72 To bring about mercy with our fathers and to call into remembrance His holy covenant, 73 the oath which He swore to Abraham our father, which is given to us: 74 being delivered fearlessly from the hands of our enemies to serve Him 75 in piety and in righteousness before Him for all of our days. 76 And now you, child, shall be called a prophet of the Highest: for you shall go on before the face of Yahweh to prepare His path. 77 For which to give knowledge of salvation to His people by the dismissal of their errors, 78 through the affectionate mercies of our God, by whom dawn visits us from the heights 79 to shine upon those sitting in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet in the way of peace.” 80 And the child grew and was strengthened in spirit, and was in the wilderness until the day of his manifestation to Israel. - Luke 1:67-80, CNT


Only those who came from Abraham's loins through Jacob. Only those to whom the law was given. Only those to whom the promises of redemption and salvation were made. Only Israel! ALL of ISRAEL! WHOSOEVER of ISRAEL! Anyone who claims otherwise is fooling himself, but not God! In the end, there is a city and upon its gates are inscribed the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel. No one else will get into that city. Within the city is a tree upon whose branches produce twelve fruits. The Tree of Life is Christ. The twelve fruits are also the tribes of Israel. The promise of the Tree of Life was made only to Adam (Genesis 3:23). The other races of the earth have no part in any of this.

There is NO room for universalism in the Bible.
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Re: Show us why these verses don't support universalism

Postby Zenas » Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:47 pm

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Thanks much. It helps having the perspective of others.

Once the light is focused on the truth of the Covenant being for the House of Israel, it becomes clear. But, I understand how someone can read the Scriptures and pass right over the obvious, see what one wants to see, read what one wants to read, and understand what one wants to understand. What one has been trained to see, read and understand.

Yes, it is frustrating, attempting to undo years and years of false teaching, that I myself was once a victim of.

I think I'll just send my friend a link to these posts and let him read for himself.

I just thank Yahweh that He has opened my eyes to see and my ears to hear.

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Re: Show us why these verses don't support universalism

Postby TheAryanPathtoHELL » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:00 pm

If someone does not know the first part of the story (Old Testament), which composes 2/3 of the Bible, how in the heck can they know what FAMILY Jesus comes from and who he is talking to?

Without the Old Testament, Jesus is just a fool. The Old Testament provides the ENTIRE foundation for what Jesus is talking about and who he is. The ONLY way someone can accept Universalism is if they do not understand the first part of the story (Old Testament) and then only utilize select passages that justify THEIR own un-Biblical agenda. They are taking a single paragraph and making a claim of what the entire book is about when they dont even now what 2/3 of the Bible is about. Only fools would do such a thing.

Pretend Jesus is in America. If Jesus spoke to a group in Aspen Colorado he could speak to "all people" because they are all Israelites in Aspen CO. If Jesus spoke to a Golf Tournament in Florida he could speak to "all" as well because they are mostly Israelites with many Pharisees and Jews present. If Jesus spoke to Israelites in Detroit Michigan, he could still say WHOMEVER even though some curious Blacks may show up to hear an Israelite speak to his people. Jesus message is to his ISRAELITE brothers who can see and hear his message.

Furthermore, I see no problem if Jesus talked to other RACES of people at the same time to tell them about the lies and deceptions of the Jew Pharisees. Just like today, an Israelite can speak to a Black about the evils of the Jew and tell him to turn away from Jew sicknesses, that does not prevent the Israelite from following Gods Laws among his own kind.

Trying to take 1 word from 1 verse and separate it from the entire story is what Jew propagandists do in order to lie and deceive.
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Re: Show us why these verses don't support universalism

Postby SwordBrethren » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:43 am

If I were to shout at the shooting range, "all ye who are here, load a magazine with my ammo, on me" that would apply to all those who were there, not to somebody seven miles down the road in the hood who happens to hear about the generous thing I did an hour later when somebody twitters about it.


What modern missionaries are doing is taking the bread of the children and casting it to the dogs.
Revelation 18:
Und ich hörte eine andere Stimme vom Himmel, die sprach: Gehet aus von ihr, mein Volk, daß ihr nicht teilhaftig werdet ihrer Sünden, auf daß ihr nicht empfanget etwas von ihren Plagen!

Denn ihre Sünden reichen bis in den Himmel, und Gott denkt an ihren Frevel.


Judentum ist Verbrechertum!

Heute ist Deutschland die größte Weltmacht! - Der Führer 30 Januar 1940
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Re: Show us why these verses don't support universalism

Postby bamaman » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:32 am

SwordBrethren wrote:If I were to shout at the shooting range, "all ye who are here, load a magazine with my ammo, on me" that would apply to all those who were there, not to somebody seven miles down the road in the hood who happens to hear about the generous thing I did an hour later when somebody twitters about it.


What modern missionaries are doing is taking the bread of the children and casting it to the dogs.



i concur Sword Brethren. Plus "Don't cast you pearls before the swine
lest they trample them under foot and turn again to rend you."
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Re: Show us why these verses don't support universalism

Postby Vandal » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:39 am

Let's pretend I write a letter to all my 88 great grandchildren. In it I tell them to teach all their children that I will come to give everyone an inheritance, if they will comply with my conditions.

"And all of you who seek me and obey, shall get an inheritance from your billionaire grandpappy in his last days."

One of my grandkids pays the letter no mind and drops it in the trash, and a negro and a white wino rooting through the trash pulls out the letter, and read it:

"And all of you who seek me and obey, shall get an inheritance from your billionaire grandpappy in his last days."

So the negro goes to the hood with the wino who explains to everyone that an inheritance has been promised to all.

And when they show up when grandpappy is on his deathbed issuing his last will and testament, and the whole hood of negroes shows up, do you think grandpappy is giving them one red cent that is meant for the grandchildren the letter was addressed to?

Reading other people's mail does not entitle you to anything, All You All.
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Re: Show us why these verses don't support universalism

Postby Michael » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:09 am

Great analogy Vandal!!! Liked it!
Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Matthew 7 16-19 KJV
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Re: Show us why these verses don't support universalism

Postby SwordBrethren » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:58 am

Another key is that contrary to what modern so-called Christians do in the name of Christ, Christ Himself did not evangelize, but rather He spoke in parables to the mixed multitude. Those who were given the ability to understand did indeed understand while the rest were left confused, lest they hear, perceive, understand, convert, and be healed.

Read Matthew chapter thirteen.
Revelation 18:
Und ich hörte eine andere Stimme vom Himmel, die sprach: Gehet aus von ihr, mein Volk, daß ihr nicht teilhaftig werdet ihrer Sünden, auf daß ihr nicht empfanget etwas von ihren Plagen!

Denn ihre Sünden reichen bis in den Himmel, und Gott denkt an ihren Frevel.


Judentum ist Verbrechertum!

Heute ist Deutschland die größte Weltmacht! - Der Führer 30 Januar 1940
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