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Speaking languages to Yahweh

Discussions concerning the New Testament

Speaking languages to Yahweh

Postby DunaMiss » Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:47 am

Dear Mr. Finck,
Thank you for your diligence and commitment to Yahweh and your gift to Israel of this new Bible translation. I have certainly been enlightened through your teaching!

I have a few questions concerning 1 Corinthians 14:2, 14-18, 28, 39.

Christogenea Version:
2 For he speaking in a language speaks not to men but to Yahweh, indeed no one hears, but he speaks mysteries in Spirit. 14 For if perhaps I pray in a language, my Spirit prays, but my perception is barren. 15 What is it then? I will pray in Spirit, but I will also pray with the mind. I will sing with the Spirit, but I will also sing with the mind. 16 Since if perhaps you would speak well with the Spirit, he who is sitting in the place of the uninstructed, how shall he proclaim ‘Truth’ upon your giving of thanks, seeing that what you say he does not know? 17 For you indeed give thanks rightly, but the other is not built up. 18 I give thanks to Yahweh speaking in more languages than all of you… 28 And if perhaps there is not an interpreter, he must be silent among the assembly, and he must speak to himself and to Yahweh. 39 And so, my brethren, you be zealous to interpret prophecy, and you must not be prevented to speak in languages.


King James Version:
2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. 18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all… 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.


Question #1: What is “praying in the Spirit” and “singing in the Spirit,” as compared to praying with the mind/understanding and singing with the mind/understanding?

Verse 15:
“What is it then? I will pray in Spirit, but I will also pray with the mind. I will sing with the Spirit, but I will also sing with the mind.”


Question #2: Why did you translate verse 18 as speaking more “languages” rather than as speaking languages more “often” or to a greater degree than others, as numerous translations seem to express?

“I give thanks to my God -- more than you all with tongues speaking…” Robert Young, 1898
“I talk in strange languages more than any of you…” William F. Beck, 1976
“I offer thanksgiving to God in private, speaking in tongues…more than any of you…” W.J. Conybeare, 1851
“I thank my God that I have a greater gift of tongues than any of you…” J.B. Phillips, 1958
“I speak in a tongue, thank God, more than all of you…” Richard F. Weymouth, 1903
“I thank my God I speak in tongues more than you all...” Kenneth S. Wuest, 1961
“I thank my God, I speak in languages more than ye all…” Noah Webster, 1833


Question #3: Why did Paul speak in languages of the Spirit and not with the mind (mysteries in the Spirit) to Yahweh and also to himself more than all of the Corinthians?

Verses 2 and 28:
“For he speaking in a language speaks not to men but to Yahweh, indeed no one hears, but he speaks mysteries in Spirit. And if perhaps there is not an interpreter, he must be silent among the assembly, and he must speak to himself and to Yahweh.”


Question #4: The bible indicates that we can build our own selves up by praying in languages of the Holy Spirit. Since Paul commended these Christians for giving thanks “rightly” (kalōs: beautifully, finely, excellently, well, rightly, so that there shall be no room for blame, truly) to Yahweh in languages of the Spirit—those not understood with our minds—how can we imitate him in this today?

Verses 17-18 and 39:
“For you indeed give thanks rightly, but the other is not built up. I give thanks to Yahweh speaking in more languages than all of you… And so, my brethren, you be zealous to interpret prophecy, and you must not be prevented to speak in languages.”


I Corinthians 13:1
“If perhaps I would speak in the languages of men and of Messengers, but I do not have love, I have become brass sounding or a cymbal clanging.”

Jude 20
“But you, beloved, building yourselves up in sanctity in your faith, praying in the Holy Spirit must keep yourselves in the love of Yahweh, accepting the mercy of our Prince Yahshua Christ for eternal life.”

Hebrews 6:12
“…that you would not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience are inheriting the promises.”


Thank you so much for your time and attention to these questions!
DunaMiss
 

Re: Speaking languages to Yahweh

Postby wmfinck » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:52 am

Answer to question 1:
My opinion is that praying/singing in the Spirit are meditational and wordless. Praying/singing with the mind, we make conscious solicitation. Paul explains in Romans Chapter 8: “24 In hope we are restored, but hope being seen is not hope; indeed that which one sees why would he also hope for? 25 But if we expect that which we do not see, through patient endurance we wait. 26 And in like manner the Spirit assists us with our weakness; for that which we should pray for, regarding what there is need of, we do not know, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible utterances. 27 And He who searches the hearts knows that in the mind of the Spirit, because in accordance with Yahweh it intercedes for the saints.”

Answer to question 2:
Because the Greek plainly states “more languages”. According to Liddell & Scott, mallon strengthens the word “with which it stands”. In this case, it precedes “tongues” (or “languages”), a plural noun. The natural reading to me is clearly “more languages”, and not to speak more in [another] language. Paul was most likely trilingual (Hebrew, Greek, and probably Latin). History suggests to me that most of the Greeks in Greece usually only spoke Greek. So Paul’s statement is very likely to be plainly true.

Answer to question 3:
Perhaps I am missing something, but this question seems unintelligible to me, and not related to the pericope which you have cited.
“Mysteries in the Spirit” are things that we do not vocalize, for we know we have needs, but what we need we do not always know. Yahweh knows! See the reference to Romans 8 above.


Answer to question 4:
Verse 17 must be read along with those which proceed. If you give thanks and praise to Yahweh in a language that your fellows in the assembly do not understand, well, it is good to give thanks and praise, of course, but you are not truly edifying your fellows – especially those who are uninstructed and unfamiliar with what you are doing. So Paul is saying that it is better to speak in a language that your fellows can understand, so that they may be edified.

If I read all the Greek passages Eli and I discussed on our programs aloud, I would understand them (I would surely mispronounce half the words), but what good would that do anyone else? I would be a silly spectacle (I think)!

Hope this helps. Sorry it took so long! Thank you for your patience.
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Re: Speaking languages to Yahweh

Postby Catherine » Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:15 pm

I just finished a search to see if this topic had been discussed for I was curious also.

So, what do you make of those Pentecostals that speak the way they do and call it the gift of the Holy Spirit. In fact, I was taught that if I didn't speak like that I did not have the Holy Spirit. Has anyone on this board ever spoke with 'tongues' in the manner that the charasmatics and Pentecostals use?

Another thought, have you noticed the ones who support the evil Israel country are the very same ones, for the most part, that speak in what they call tongues?

Cathy
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Re: Speaking languages to Yahweh

Postby Crossman » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:23 pm

Spent a lot of years in that type of church. I would attend several Jimmy Swaggart crusades in my early
years and there was much tongue talking in all of it. I would get filled with the spirit and speak in tongues over 30 years ago. As I think back there was really no great shocking inward move that manifest itself when it did happen. You where expected to be part of the moving of the (spirit) and you
simply did as everyone else did. It is a part of the program.

It has been several years since I have been in a service like that, and I do not remember the last time I would speak in tongues. I did see some things happen that I still cannot explain and did see some people get released from some pretty bad life and personal situations. I guess the lord will move in some situations regardless of the type of service.

I do remember two moves of the spirit ( or what I thought were moves) and can still remember both. One would involve someone speaking in tongues and an interpretation was given after. Very profound at the time. The other would involve a vision and stepping out (do what the spirit was leading you to do) I did not do what I was suppose to do (glad now I did not). All part of a Pentecostal service and what we considered the move of the spirit and what it was doing at the time. As I look back on those two moves, they would both involve a black person. Not a big deal to me at the time but I now understand that there may be another spirit working here.

I always had a problem with those who were filled with the spirit and spoke the heavenly language but were shysters when out of church. This just did not fit into my idea of a godly man or woman.

And yes the savior of the world and chosen of god (jews) [sarc off] were a major part of the churches and schools that I was associated with. I would become friends with several Messianic jews in those years, but I somehow could not connect the jew and Christianity even in my early years in the Pentecostal move. We had a messianic congregation come and do a play about the two brides when the Lord returns at the end of the age. (yes one a Jewish bride and one the Christian bride). I would not go because I did not agree with that even then and I had no idea what CI was. I kind of wish now that I did go as I could use that info now. This is still a teaching in the mainstream churches today.

I think the Baptist folks are just as bad in regards to the jew (Hagee)
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Re: Speaking languages to Yahweh

Postby Staropramen » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:14 am

Catherine wrote:So, what do you make of those Pentecostals that speak the way they do and call it the gift of the Holy Spirit. In fact, I was taught that if I didn't speak like that I did not have the Holy Spirit. Has anyone on this board ever spoke with 'tongues' in the manner that the charasmatics and Pentecostals use?



I was involved with Pentecostal kookery back in the 90's. I fell for the speaking-in-tongues nonsense for awhile. In my experience I found that the people most enamored by this are usually the laziest ones when it comes to studying. Why read big thick books when you can blubber like a retard and God will tell you everything? Pentecostalism is jungle-nigger voodooism with a Christian face.
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Re: Speaking languages to Yahweh

Postby Catherine » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:35 am

Star said: "Pentecostalism is jungle-nigger voodooism with a Christian face."

The more I study this tongues thing the more I think it is the jungle crap. This is why I asked. When I was 16 after my dad went to prison and I moved in with my Pentecostal Aunt, she, of course, drilled in our heads that we were not filled with the spirit unless we talked in tongues. I had been there about a year and went up to the altar for prayer. Out of no where I did start speaking like that and I didn't even try, it just came upon me and was bigger than me. I truly felt like I was standing in front of God's throne. Of course, I was thrilled afterward, thinking I had "gotten the Spirit." But, it never happened again and for years I was devastated that it had been taken away from me. Oh, and you can bet I was told it was sin in my heart, or pride that I had the Spirit, and so on. After about twenty years of not ever talking like that again I left the Pentecostal Churches and never looked back. After the internet came around I was able to study this more and I'm still not sure what happened that day and why it felt so good just to never return. I prayed about it for decades and have came to 3 conclusions.

1. It is has Star said, a voodoo filth that fell on me because it was in the church, and the reason I haven't done it since was the grace of God. Even saying this scares me because of the verse about denying the Holy Spirit and blasphemy.

2. It was the Spirit and I'm a rotten to the core creature who doesn't deserve it ever again.

3. I have absolutely no idea what the heck happened that day.

Cathy
Jer 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise.
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Re: Speaking languages to Yahweh

Postby Catherine » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:50 am

What I'm trying to figure out is if speaking in tongues is evil, and supporting Israel is evil, is there a connection? A Satanic connection? Some of my pentecostal family can be very sweet, as long as I don't mention the Israel thing. I truly believe they would support Israel over America.
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Re: Speaking languages to Yahweh

Postby Heather » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:20 am

I agree, Catherine. My family speak in tongues and won't hear of one bad thing about the Jews or Israel. They also don't study bc hey, they have the spirit and are special!
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Re: Speaking languages to Yahweh

Postby wmfinck » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:37 am

The in-group pressure to speak in tongues and the psychological impact of the result is, I am certain, very great. And of course this is further magnified when one wants to please God and be accepted by Him, and believes that this is the path to follow in order to realize that.

Wow, what bullshit.

If the Pentecostal version of speaking in tongues were real, it would happen all the time and not just in a church building for an hour or two each Sunday.

You may be in the workplace on a Tuesday afternoon, and all of a sudden someone would be flopping on the floor yelling some gibberish. And then, suddenly a total stranger would pop out of nowhere glorifying Jesus because he could understand the gibberish and it was a wonderful revelation.

Maybe it would also often happen in a line at Walmart on a Thursday morning. Or at a Saturday evening ballgame.

But those things never happen, because the Pentecostal version of speaking in tongues is an in-group sensation that makes one feel as if he (or she) belongs to something special. But that something special has nothing to do with the true Body of Christ, which needs ministering to 24/7 and not simply for that hour or two on Sunday morning.

as I wrote:Wow, what bullshit.
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Re: Speaking languages to Yahweh

Postby Staropramen » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:16 pm

In Europe we were involved with a Pentecostal bunch and the kike pastor's wife acted as the "tongues police". My wife never got "the anointing" and just accepted it. Her attitude was that it might be real, it's evidently not for everyone and if it's not for her then oh well. But the Pentecostal kooks insisted that she needed it and something must be wrong if she isn't receiving it.

We'd be flubbering like a bunch of idiots on drugs and my wife would just pray quietly to herself with words. Every so often Danuska, the kike pastor's wife would float by to spy on my wife to see if the spirit had landed yet. This woman actually did seem to float like a spook on the Moors. She also had a spooky gaze about her. Probably from laying with a kike every day.
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