Question re: John 3:16

[Dan]

I resonate with what you are saying, Zenas. I enjoy discussing just about any topic from a multitude of perspectives. Like you, I find it difficult in finding others who can converse about alternative viewpoints on a given subject, in particular, religious subjects, without their losing their composure.

The "wheat and the tares" & the "sheep and the goats" parables can only be understood if one is well grounded in the first several chapters of Genesis, in particular, chapter three, with the advent of the two seedlines. The majority of "Judeo"-Christians have absolutely no understanding of these crucial chapters, and, hence, they have absolutely almost no understanding of the rest of the Biblical text, except in a kind of fragmented or fractured frame of reference. So, yes, it is more or less an exercise in futility to try to reason with a Catholic or Protestant missionary on these subjects. Most Christians think that the Original Sin has something to do with eating an apple. I kid you not. I am sure you have heard their hapless theories on the topic. It is quite laughable. Because they lack any understanding of the true meaning of Genesis 3, which the rest of the Biblical text is predicated upon, they have a thoroughly skewed view of what the Bible, and, even what the Christ is all about. It is pathetic, yet, funny, at the same time. Yeah... the Original Sin was Adam & Eve ate an apple and Yahweh kicked them out of the Garden. Uhhh... yeah, sure... whatever.

Praise Yahweh

Daniel

[JamesTheJust]

unless there is some kind DNA analysis available.

Years ago, when the genome project was big news, I remember distinctly reading that the researchers had discovered a gene which was specific to White Europeans and was evident throughout all of people of that racial makeup. Within the same story, it was reported that contrary to assumed anthropological theories, there was no common gene type among Africans and the idea that all races originated in Africa could not be supported through genome research.

This news was quickly hushed up and there were some who said it was "racist".

[Zenas]

The majority of "Judeo"-Christians have absolutely no understanding of these crucial chapters, and, hence, they have absolutely almost no understanding of the rest of the Biblical text, except in a kind of fragmented or fractured frame of reference.

that describes me for many years. Until, as you say, I understood and accepted Genesis 3. Can't believe I never once heard any of this Two-Seedline concept, even though I was involved in a group who prided themselves for having the "truth." Yes, laughable and sad simultaneously. And worse, even if you explain the text from the original so your listener is not hearing your "opinion" but straight fact from the original languages, it's like showing the beauty of a internal combustion engine operated car to someone pulling a rickshaw, whose father pulled a rickshaw and his father before him.

I'm beginning to realize how the error keeps getting passed down decade after decade. In my group only certain lexicons, dictionaries, thesauruses and commentaries, etc., were acceptable for use. In this way, only those definitions found in those reference works were ever 'the truth" and therefore one never learned from a different perspective. Hence the error, repeated. How many times have I heard, "which reference work did you use?" I remember "Wuest is Worse" for example. Never mind that so many passages didn't make any sense and most of the Old Testament was, well, just that, Old Testament, as if it was outdated. Then you read a New Testament passage such as "I have not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill the law," and scratch your head and move on to some other topic. The law was, after all, "nailed to the cross."

[wmfinck]

Dear Zenas,
I must admit, that I have tarried in answering this query, because it is a difficult one, and I believe that there is no single one-size-fits-all answer. I have been through the same situation hundreds of times, and more often than not, I have failed to accomplish the objective: the awakening of a brother.
The children of Israel were told that they would be blind. That blindness was a result of disobedience. The veil has now been lifted, but – I believe – only for a fortunate few. It is possible to show a brother the truth, but first the brother must be awakened and looking for the truth. Only Yahweh, I believe, does the awakening. Our own reasoning can never win, no matter how well one knows Greek, Scriptures and History. If Yahweh has not called our target brother to that awakening, that awakening is not going to occur.
But it may be asked “can I not be the vehicle for that awakening?” And yes, of course that is possible – although personally I think that it has to entail more than that. All of the people I have been successful with, were already disenchanted with the “world”, or at least knew that something was terribly amiss.
We actually discussed this very thing last night on the open forum that some of us have initiated on Talkshoe. One good way to approach a person who already is esteemed to be knowledgeable in the Scripture is with questions. Questions that you already know the answers to, of course, but you cannot let that on to your target!
There are many places to go with this. The jews are a race, Luke 11:47-51, John 8:44, who are of Satan, Rev. 2:9, 3:9, and there are many other examples. They are of Esau and not of Israel, Ezekiel 35, John 8:33, Romans 9:13. The sheep and the goats are nations, Ezekiel 34 and Matthew 25:31 ff., not individuals, and the cultural and spiritual differences between us and them can be discussed all day. Yahshua, of course, came only for the sheep, Matthew 15:24, John 10. But remember that Yahshua Himself foretold of universalism: Matthew 13:47-50. Perhaps we are among the first of the messengers who separate the good race of fish from the bad!
Yes, it is a race of fish, and that is what the word translated “kind” here means, just as “kind” appears 5 or 6 times in Genesis Chapter 1. That is the biggest hurdle in this endeavor: the bad translations. Perhaps you can include queries about that in your questioning. But even my own knowledge of Greek and history does not help when I encounter a self-justified Baptist or Evangelical who thinks he himself is saving the world!
I hope this helps at least a little. Good luck, and may Yahweh be with you!
Bill

PS: RPWake (his Talkshoe forum moniker) uttered that same "cognitive dissonance" phrase in relation to this same topic last night! And how absolutely true it is!

[Zenas]

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I've got a quick reply then I will reply more in depth later.

I've lived in several third world countries, in Latin America, Asia and the Middle East, for over a decade.

I describe my feeling of "culture alienation" this way: I am a freshwater fish living in salt water. We [the other race and I] are both fish, but I am created for one kind of water, they another. I can't speak for the other races, but I believe freshwater is better. And that may be why many salt water fish want to migrate to a fresh water environment. I even know Asians who were born and raised by an Asian couple but lived in Canada and the US their entire life, moved to Asia, at the bewilderment of their parents, and have the same problems with the salt water environment as do us Anglo-Saxons, even though they can speak the language fluently and have two Asian parents. Explain that.

I explain it this way: The Anglo-Saxon world, all things considered, is the best the world has to offer, despite the fact the Edomites have ruined it. [we let them, but that is another topic]. There are Anglo-Saxons who migrate to third world countries, increasingly so lately, but usually because they can't afford to stay in their own nation or they want to escape the affects the so-called Judeans have had on their culture; corruption, high cost, feminism, etc, And although they most likely will not be able to tell you who caused they problems, they can certainly tell you what they are leaving behind them.

Once I thought of my "alienation" in Biblical terms, sheep and goats, tares and wheat, it all made sense. Sheep are not goats and are not made to mingle or mix with goats. I've never seen sheep and goats together, have you? they are separate. They are different kinds. There is a constant attrition that takes place just having to live among Asians, for example. Asia is loud, noisy,despite the image of the eastern mysticism, they are a noisy race; in many ways, chaotic, unorganized, mistakes made years ago are still being paid for today, by everyone, and will never be fully repaired or done away with. They will have to live with what they have because of who they are and what they have done. As an Anglo-Saxon I am always reminded of how it could be and what they [and I] are missing, but they haven't a clue. They think their salt water world is all there is. It is only those who travel a bit that I can relate to and they me. It is like a light bulb has gone off in their head by being in an Anglo-Saxon nation. "Ah, this is what I am missing," or, "this is how it can be." Even the language shows how different we think. For one must think in a language to become fluent in that language, and changing how one thinks is what is so difficult, at least for me, in learning another language. I can't bring myself to think - eat I want, eat you want?

What missionaries are trying to do is give a message that belongs to sheep, to goats. Yet, in some cases it works. For example, South Korea has a high percentage of its population who claim to be Christian and send, next to the US, more missionaries abroad than any other country. It is these anomalies that give me pause.

[wmfinck]

Well, that is a great assessment, and hard to add anything to, except for this:

Matthew 7:21-23:
“21 Not all who say to Me ‘Prince, Prince!’ shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he doing the will of My Father who is in the heavens. 22 Many shall say to Me in that day ‘Prince, Prince, have we not prophesied in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and have done many works of power in Your name?’ 23 And then shall I profess to them that ‘Never have I known you! Depart from Me, those who are working at lawlessness!’

Amos 3:2
"You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Lawlessness is not necessarily the obvious sin. Mixing sheep and goats, that is lawlessness too, no matter how innocuous it may appear to be on the surface.

While missionaries from the alien nations may - thanks to our own misguided church-peoples - have the Gospel, they do not have the works. At least, not on their own. It is our race which builds hospitals and orphanages, feeds the poor (especially the poor goats), cares for the elderly, etc. etc. From our race exudes all that makes the world civil. Our works alone have identified us. Whenever I see one such as yourself, a man educated in the world, who has figured out all of these things, and is able to discern the sheep from the goats from observation of the everyday world, it certainly gladdens my heart. To me, that helps to show that the Spirit is indeed operating among us!

[Zenas]

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But remember that Yahshua Himself foretold of universalism: Matthew 13:47-50. Perhaps we are among the first of the messengers who separate the good race of fish from the bad!
Yes, it is a race of fish, and that is what the word translated “kind” here means, just as “kind” appears 5 or 6 times in Genesis Chapter 1.

“47 Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like a net having been cast into the sea and it gathers from out of every race, 48 which when it is full, bringing up upon the shore and sitting they gather the good ones into vessels, but the rotten ones they cast out. 49 Thusly it shall be at the consummation of the age, the messengers shall go out and they shall separate the wicked from the midst of the righteous 50 and they shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth!

What my missionary friend will say is this:

"Yes, at the end of the age, the wicked [non-Christians] will be separated from the righteous [Christians] and the messengers will cast the wicked [non-Christians] into the fire. "



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[wmfinck]

But the problem with that interpretation is that the word "kind" in Matthew 13:47-50 is from the Greek word genos, and it means race. It cannot mean "believer". Your friend and all of the judeo-christians apply meanings to Greek words that the Greeks would indeed have marvelled at, and surely would have laughed at also!

So the question to pose to your friend is this: Do Greek words have meaning? And if so, HOW can we redefine them to conform to what we think to be true? And If we do so, how do we live with ourselves, and how do we face our God, having perverted His Word?

[Zenas]

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I haven't posed the question to my friend yet, but I can anticipate his answer:

Verses 49 and 50 don't refer to the fish and kind of verses 47 and 48.

The former verses are nothing more than an anecdotal explanation to help us understand that there will be a separation between the saved and the unsaved - "the messengers shall go out and they shall separate the wicked [unsaved] from the midst of the righteous" [saved] - just like there is a separation of "good" fish from "bad" fish.

I don't mean to be obstinate, but this is the reality.

[matthewott]

Then you give them all the verses supporting the fact that only the the nation of Israel is saved, which I can't specifically do right now. Someone with better scriptural knowledge please???